Hammer pound, swedish, rail, WHAT?

[Cryshot]

Hi,

I`ve been hanging around and reading this forum for a while now and I can`t figure out what is the difference between those three.

I suppose the rail is the same as the wide rail (like Nate Doss is doing) but I am not sure.

Can someone sum up the differences between those three techniques with some example videos or at least names of players?

Thanks!

 

[slowplastic]

I have trouble distinguishing some throwers as well. I just want to say that it can be hard to see and easier to feel, at least when I have felt a little difference between hammer or rail motions....I have no idea about Swedish in feel. Anyways, my point is that if you aren't throwing ~350' (Teebird) and want to break through to the next power level then this is information overload. It has to be felt to even start to understand what people are talking about. If you are in that range or further, then hopefully there will be some reasonable video posted to try to decipher...

 

[sidewinder22]

There's lots of overlap, but here's my take:

American technique - I associate more level shoulder rotation, McBeth, and Avery are prime examples.

Swedish/lever technique - I always associate with vertical shoulders, Feldy, Astrom, Lundmark.
GG, Brinster, Shultz, Will S, Doss and many others use a combo of techniques.

----
Wide reachback - prime examples is Doss and Shultz, the upper arm is well over 90 degrees from the chest at reachback and the arm is closer to the left side of the tee pad than the body RHBH.

Narrow reachback - Feldy, the upper arm comes closer than 90 degrees to the chest.

Straight reachback - Most pros have a wide upper arm angle but turn the shoulders much further back than Doss and Shultz and would be classified more as Straight like Will S.

----
Hammer pound technique - is using a massive wrist movement with the wrist slamming open, and using your body positions to set up the hinging. Not sure any top pros use this technique.

Rail "Beto rail" technique - is using a very small amount of wrist bend, almost keeping it straight and loading it more as tight spring. The rail is using the changing the directions of the head of the disc to setup the exit speed of the disc. The vast majority of pros use this technique. Learning the hammer pound can help learn the rail.

 

[Cryshot]

Thank you for your response. Actually, I can throw a teebird around 370ft so I hope someone will clarify those techniques.

It`s just that I am from the Czech Republic (central Europe). Disc golf is still pretty young here and I don`t really have any idol to look at. So I am trying to with this forum and tons of disc golf videos.

EDIT// Didn`t see sidewinder`s post. Thanks!

 

[Dan Ensor]

The difference I see is that Swedish throwers use longer levers that stay in positions that are easier to apply force to, while american throwers use more mechanical advantage, but some times the levers are in positions not advantageous to applying force.

Americans get the elbow further forward.


Both are rail methods, though. Every throw is on a rail. The "rail method" is just maximizing the exploitation of the backwards-R lever.

Hammer pound is also there in all methods. It's maximizing the exploitation of the lever length of the disc, and somewhat acceleration in general.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

This is definitely worthy of a dialogue and hopefully a roughly agreed upon dictionary.

I've always considered the hammer technique as a DRILL.



Blake is the first reference I could find to it, but the idea is that you are mentally replacing the disc with a hammer that you want to extend forward to pound a nail out in space in front of you. It helped me develop a more pronounced wrist extension and move the hit further out front, as well as promoted elbow extension.

That drill seemed to evolve into much of Bradley's ideas about hammering a disc forward with a backhand.

Swedish Technique is much less about elbow extension, and more about using the whole arm as 1 powerful lever, more hinged at the shoulder and wrist.

Tomas Ekstrom was probably the first to get talked about much with this, but Feldberg made it much more common once he adopted it.

The elbow does bend in the swedish, but it's more about keeping the arm straighter and leveraging the outside of the disc extremely hard.

The RAIL is a concept that came up on DGR, which was a description for the path of the hand moving through the back swing and through the follow through. There were 2 main ideas with the rail:

1. The Normal back swing, elbow extension and hit - that allows the disc to be pulled along a straight line into the right pec and extended along that line into the hit.

2. The wide rail, is something that is most commonly seen with Nate Doss.

The back swing is more like leaving the disc away from you than behind you, and the shape of the extension is changed. The acceleration happens later and through some wizardry - it's much easier to hold the disc later into the hit.

The hit: Probably the most difficult to put a concrete definition on - is THE DIRECTIONAL CHANGE OF THE HAND (that) ALLOWS YOU TO "THROW" THE ANGULAR VELOCITY IN THE FORWARD DIRECTION. Blake said that.

I wrote a long article about it here. But the idea is that the hit happens when you pull around the front of the disc and hold the rim until the disc ejects forward. By then pulling back on the rim, the disc ejects so that it can leave your hand faster than your hand was actually travelling.

Like moving a trebuchet (your hand) forward and then unleashing it.

 

[horsethief]

This is probably going to come off pretty harsh (I hope it doesn't), but in the interest of helping people learn, i'm going to stick my neck out. It's confusing as heck trying to interpret the writings of the three B's (blake/brad/beto), or even DD when you're learning. So in the interest of keeping the confusion to a minimum:

Both are rail methods, though. Every throw is on a rail. The "rail method" is just maximizing the exploitation of the backwards-R lever.

Hammer pound is also there in all methods. It's maximizing the exploitation of the lever length of the disc, and somewhat acceleration in general.

The rail method is called the "rail" because it FEELS like your hand/disc is on a roller coaster. It feels like it's going around a corner at 89789345 mph and there's 9 ton's of g-forces on the disc as you go around the rail. When you first find the rail, you should also mentally be experiencing similar emotions/thoughts as if you were actually on a roller coaster. eg: OOOOOHHHHHHH SHHHiiiiiiiiiiiTTTT WHAAAT DOOOO iiiiiiiiiiiiiii DOOOOOOOOOO WiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiTH THiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiSSSSSS DiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiSSSSSSSSCCCCCC (as you're going around the rail).

The hammer pound method, is called that because it FEELS like you're pounding a hammer. You cannot start off the throw (read as: start from the right-pec position) using the rail, and then switch to the hammer pound at the end -- it just doesn't work like that.

you cannot mix and match the "rail" and "hammer pound" techniques. The rail is a very fluid motion, it doesn't load up your wrist, or rely on your wrist at all really. The hammer pound is not fluid (compared to the rail at least, on video it all looks very fluid), you have to accelerate your arm/hand into a pre-defined point to have all the levers unload. The hammer-pound is used for a powerful forehand, OR backhand, throw.

In a forehand hammer pound: you glide into your pre-defined point, and then pound the **** out of it to slam your wrist CLOSED (into a locked closed position). Your wrist and fingers leverage the disc while they are closing. You could glide in, and keep gliding all the way through, or even accelerating, all the way through, but without the predefined point, the levers wont unload the way you need them to.

The backhand hammer pound is practically identical, except your wrist isn't as strong in opening as it is at closing. Smooth, glide into the predefined point, and then pound the crap out of it to slam your wrist OPEN (into a locked open position). The wrist and fingers, again, leverage the disc as they are flying open. You can't throw as far with this, because your wrist is much stronger in closing than in opening, however, the backhand hammer pound has a trick up its sleeve! From this slammed-open wrist-locked forward position, you're in the perfect position to rotate your torso/shoulders and accelerate the disc to never-before-achieved speeds, while it is pivoting and trying to fly forward -- something that you can't do throwing forehand.

The RAIL is a concept that came up on DGR, which was a description for the path of the hand moving through the back swing and through the follow through. There were 2 main ideas with the rail:

1. The Normal back swing, elbow extension and hit - that allows the disc to be pulled along a straight line into the right pec and extended along that line into the hit.

2. The wide rail, is something that is most commonly seen with Nate Doss.

The back swing is more like leaving the disc away from you than behind you, and the shape of the extension is changed. The acceleration happens later and through some wizardry - it's much easier to hold the disc later into the hit.

IMO, the rail has nothing to do with whether you have a wide reach-back or not. Maybe you were already saying that?

I wrote a long article about it here. But the idea is that the hit happens when you pull around the front of the disc and hold the rim until the disc ejects forward. By then pulling back on the rim, the disc ejects so that it can leave your hand faster than your hand was actually travelling.

What you are describing, to me, sounds like a half-hit. If your shoulders are pulling your hand around the disc, there's no way for your wrist to fully unload.

Anyways, again, i apologize if this is coming off harsh. I'm just trying to save years of trial and error for people that ever decide to go down the big snap road.

 

[OhSnap]

To be blunt, most writings I see on the subject need a companion volume just to begin to decipher. I feel like a confused serf receiving the divine wisdom from the local Cardinal. Don't get me wrong, it has helped my game. But I don't yet see a logical progression for a beginner based on drills that help you feel. It will probably come as the sport gets bigger and reaches a wider audience.

 

[horsethief]

To be blunt, most writings I see on the subject need a companion volume just to begin to decipher. I feel like a confused serf receiving the divine wisdom from the local Cardinal. Don't get me wrong, it has helped my game. But I don't yet see a logical progression for a beginner based on drills that help you feel. It will probably come as the sport gets bigger and reaches a wider audience.

Well, then ASK QUESTIONS! I was always scared to ask questions and look stupid, and then all the people that were around on DGR to answer questions slowly disappeared -- I was then left trying to figure it out all on my own. Don't be like me!

 

[sidewinder22]

This is probably going to come off pretty harsh (I hope it doesn't), but in the interest of helping people learn, i'm going to stick my neck out. It's confusing as heck trying to interpret the writings of the three B's (blake/brad/beto), or even DD when you're learning. So in the interest of keeping the confusion to a minimum:

you cannot mix and match the "rail" and "hammer pound" techniques. The rail is a very fluid motion, it doesn't load up your wrist, or rely on your wrist at all really. The hammer pound is not fluid (compared to the rail at least, on video it all looks very fluid), you have to accelerate your arm/hand into a pre-defined point to have all the levers unload. The hammer-pound is used for a powerful forehand, OR backhand, throw.

Anyways, again, i apologize if this is coming off harsh. I'm just trying to save years of trial and error for people that ever decide to go down the big snap road.

Harsh or shortsighted. For most of us mortals it will take lots of practice and trial and error. There is no real secret technique, you have to try several techniques and find what works. I believe BlakeT also said the Hammer Pound was almost a prerequisite to the Rail, or makes it easier to move over to it as the Hammer Pound teaches to half-hit, and a proper Rail is full hit. Be formless like water my friend.

 

[garublador]

Just to give a little history, the fist drill to try to show how to get wrist extension (snap) that Blake came up with was the right pec drill. The idea was to throw from your right pec and experiment with changing things until you "got" it. Then you'd build your throw from the hit back based around that. Dan Beto made a video demonstrating it.

Then a couple years later Blake introduced his "secret technique" that he had eluded to on the forums. It did a good job of showing how to attain a "half hit" but he was unable to get a consistent way to transition it to a "full hit." On here it's many times referred to as the "hammer pound" technique. The idea was to use those drills to get the feel for the hammer pound, transition that to a throw from the right pec and then build your throw from the hit back.

After that the "rail" was introduced as the best way so far to transition from a half hit to a full hit.

So, it seems as if the best way to go through these is to:

1. Get the basic mechanics down. You'll likely be strong arming, but at least you won't be actively letting go of the disc and you'll have some sort of idea of what's supposed to be going on.

2. Do the hammer pound drills.

3. Transition to the rail.

4. Start from the right pec and build your throw from the hit back.

It might be worth building a throw around the hammer pound as well before you work on the rail. Honestly, there's a good chance that most won't "get" either 2 or 3 or won't be willing to spend the time messing with their technique rather than improving scores in the short term or playing courses/tournaments. It's still a lot of work.

 

[KRATC]

How similar are most of the top pros from the waist down? I know Brinster and Feldy hop, and others do an x-step, but as far as planting and shifting, is it all similar?

 

[sidewinder22]

How similar are most of the top pros from the waist down? I know Brinster and Feldy hop, and others do an x-step, but as far as planting and shifting, is it all similar?

It's all the same.