Jupiterboy Form Thread

[jupiterboy]

No need to apologize - I actually did that because I tend to junk mine up when I have a flight of ideas and am trying to get better lol.

Apology back at ya - totally didn't mean to indict you or project about standstills, I know it could come across that way, sorry if it did More just wanted to add some motivation to stick w/ it when you're triaging stuff.

The Figure 8 hip motion seems freaking strange and magical if you haven't learned it elsewhere. Just buttwiping against the wall only got me so far, and you can kinda cheat some of the motions without shifting weight, or using the legs a little bit wrong, etc. It's all connected - and as my body keeps learning to move better it feels more and more natural. But then I learn I'm still wrong and need to make a major correction (and be willing to shake it up to learn).

Door frame grab height: as you can see, I'm learning it now so take it with a grain of salt & I will always take in what I hear from others. Though this part might help:

What I think I'm learning from the cables and door frame today is that when you initially grab the frame, it generally should be a bit lower relative to your shoulder like SW22 talks about in Door Frame 2. Then when you settle into your stance to load tension against it, it's interesting that the power position of the arm ends up roughly perpendicular to the ground because you want to "throw the doorframe" roughly parallel to the ground. But the stance needs to set up the tilted axis to unwind effortlessly - that's what you see me struggling against in my tipping or tilting habits & the cable pull seemed to challenge my body habits.

Figure 8 - I might know what you mean but video will help. Might get one of you doing doorframe and doing Buttwipe drill against the wall to help triage some of the lower body action.

Yeah, these were some of the first form vids I watched. My take away was skewed to lower is better. That's not right. He's saying don't be too high, which is different. I can get down pretty low and get slightly more force, then past a point it diminishes. I don't need to be that low and I don't need that thought. That's a great thought for me to let go of as it was pushing my strides longer than they needed. The other negative that I've debunked of late is that the drive leg is not driving but is actually collapsing once it is done. I think that's what people call the drop, IDK. That's my throw thought of the moment—quickness in the the collapse of drive leg.

 

[Brychanus]

^ yes, I think finding stance depth is tricky. You can be too tall (nearly fully upright with legs extended) or low (dropping joints past the leverage points) in the drill to find the action that would allow the body to flow into the release. Foot spacing is related to stance depth I think and helps explain people who throw more vertical (GG) or horizontal (Eagle). Seeking sweet spots that would allow high leverage and the shift and butt wipe if you released the frame to drop into the front leg is good.

Drive leg is weird. The door frame and especially cable pulls helped me start to figure out how to keep it leveraged, but then drop my weight into the other foot like walking. It also helped me to do a lot of exercises like the bull ride and skaters much wider since the move feels more dynamic than the drill makes it look.

 

[Flashblastx]

Door frame drill question. My original take on the drill was that I was searching for a height and leverage point where I would exert max force on the frame. This gets me pretty low, more like a tug-o-war type situation. I absolutely can't replicate this in a swing as there is no door frame. I've kinda struggled with it. Like, I can find that max force point, but it also requires a bunch of lean and getting my cog way off balance. What I'm seeing here is seems like you are working within the context of a normal swing height and width of stance, and looking for power in that context.

It is much like a tug of war with the door frame and you're pulling with your butt/body weight. The door frame ultimately wins and pulls you back where you were before you lead with your butt/body weight.

Think of it like this instead. There is no disc, only the door frame.

When you change your throw to be how you would pull a door frame and send it down a line then it makes sense. It's not super easy but you need the disc to be a door frame in your head and move around the disc exactly as you would the door frame. In other words, that disc does not move during the entire movement cause the door frame wouldn't and it pulls you back just as the door frame does, when you lead with your hips you win the tug of war this time and everything unwinds.

Once you understand that the door frame drill is literally how to throw and x-stepping around the door frame is literally how to x-step and throw the better off you will be. Just forget everything you do know and just practice the door frame. Then replicate the positioning that gives you the most leverage and work around the disc to the same exact positions.

 

[jupiterboy]

Door Frame: Minimal stance width with max extension.

 

[sidewinder22]

1. Both feet need to walk closer to target. Front foot needs to to be able to catch you if you let go.

2. Keep your chin up above your shoulder.

 

[jupiterboy]

Thanks for the input!

1. Both feet need to walk closer to target. Front foot needs to to be able to catch you if you let go.

For those lurking, I've got my feet at a very fair hip width @ 90° to target. Front foot is just enough forward to give me balance. You can see me let go of the frame and maintain balance, but there's nothing extra.

2. Keep your chin up above your shoulder.

Dropping the head helps with the stretch and feeling the body working as a unit, but when I raise my head it's not enough to get my chin above my shoulder. Part of that is a herniated C4, but I also need to move my grip up on the door frame, which will reduce the power of my pull on the door frame.

Conclusion: This drill is about more than feeling the power from the ground up, it's also about balancing stance, "reach back", and also height of arm in the stance, which can be too low. I was not clear about this, but based on SW22's response, I'm going with this.

The larger point is that this fully extended and stretched position does optimize my pull on the frame, but I don't have the quickness to get into anything like this position in a throw. I'm also barely balanced, but the correction was to shift the drill further from the door frame, not widen my stance, so the result of the correction will be to be more vertical in stance and more centered between my legs with less mass extended outside my stance.

 

[jupiterboy]

Door frame 2: Same stance width. Two foot widths further from the frame. Higher grip/head above shoulder. This reduced pull force on frame by about 40% estimated

 

[sidewinder22]

1. Rear foot too far from door frame. Your head is behind your foot, should be in front.

2. Front foot is too close rear foot/narrow stance. Your right hip is past your foot/knee, can't brace if you let go.

3. You are a bit static in the drill. Play around with your feet placement while holding frame.

 

[jupiterboy]

3. You are a bit static in the drill.

Yes, I'm editing out the first bit while I'm getting settled, but I'm also being programatic about the specific instructions you are giving me. For example, if you give me a single adjustment suggestion, I'm going to make that adjustment and any other that must be made to comply, but I'm not making additional adjustments that might feel better to me because that overcomplicates. Now I have a single foot width between the two extremes I've posted. Unless you are critiquing in terms of centimeters regarding foot placement, I'm generally going to be correct with my next attempt because there is no other alternative in regards to drive foot placement.

To my thinking, the drill must isolate the moment of max reach back because this, for a fraction of a second, does mirror the infinite mass that the door frame simulates. So the two points of contact—the hand on the frame and the drive foot on the floor become the focus. When I start to consider the plant foot, the focus of the drill gets a bit more blurry because there's no defined function—is this drill simulating a run up or a stand still? Basically, this stance width is variable based on the forward momentum, which has been removed from the drill. If I can let go of the frame and remain balanced, which I do in both clips, it seems fine for the purpose of the drill OR I don't yet understand the drill.

Put another way, forward momentum in a real throw needs be a check you can cash, or not so much that you fall down. So, you can, in feeling the drill, put your body in such an extreme and unbalanced position that you could never match that in a real throw. So look for max power within a concept of general balance.

What I'm really benefiting from at the moment is how you are describing creating an internal balanced space within your frame for the throw. This is from other threads, but i get as much from other form threads as this one in some ways. Thanks again!

:thmbup:

 

[sidewinder22]

Yes, I'm editing out the first bit while I'm getting settled, but I'm also being programatic about the specific instructions you are giving me. For example, if you give me a single adjustment suggestion, I'm going to make that adjustment and any other that must be made to comply, but I'm not making additional adjustments that might feel better to me because that overcomplicates. Now I have a single foot width between the two extremes I've posted. Unless you are critiquing in terms of centimeters regarding foot placement, I'm generally going to be correct with my next attempt because there is no other alternative in regards to drive foot placement.

To my thinking, the drill must isolate the moment of max reach back because this, for a fraction of a second, does mirror the infinite mass that the door frame simulates. So the two points of contact—the hand on the frame and the drive foot on the floor become the focus. When I start to consider the plant foot, the focus of the drill gets a bit more blurry because there's no defined function—is this drill simulating a run up or a stand still? Basically, this stance width is variable based on the forward momentum, which has been removed from the drill. If I can let go of the frame and remain balanced, which I do in both clips, it seems fine for the purpose of the drill OR I don't yet understand the drill.

Put another way, forward momentum in a real throw needs be a check you can cash, or not so much that you fall down. So, you can, in feeling the drill, put your body in such an extreme and unbalanced position that you could never match that in a real throw. So look for max power within a concept of general balance.

What I'm really benefiting from at the moment is how you are describing creating an internal balanced space within your frame for the throw. This is from other threads, but i get as much from other form threads as this one in some ways. Thanks again!

:thmbup:

1. I wouldn't edit out the setup. You need to play around with the foot placement.

2. There is forward momentum in the drill if you are doing it properly. Doesn't matter standstill or x-step, all the same.

 

[jupiterboy]

2. There is forward momentum in the drill if you are doing it properly. Doesn't matter standstill or x-step, all the same.

OK, but the door frame does limit velocity, so I think you get my point. I get yours, too, that I'm not doing it right, so I'll come back to this at some juncture when I can do it right so I'm not imprinting bad form. Thanks again!