Maxing out at ~400 ft...suggestions?

[emiller3]

So what I am hearing from this thread is that if you're at this plateau, your form is probably as good as it needs to be, but you're most likely lacking snap. Without snap, your distance increases are going to be tied to a particular line or disc and, consequently, you won't realize any of the golf advantages of throwing further that Blake described.

Big snap was all the rage a while back on DGR, but it seems like everyone kind of gave up on it because no one was able to get it...either that or everyone got it and moved on, in which case I'd like to hear your experiences. So I have known for a while that I don't have big snap. I've learned to throw Eagles and Valks on distance lines, which brought all my drivers into that 400' range and gave me hope that I was figuring stuff out, but my Destroyer distance really hasn't changed, which leaves me in that last plateau until I learn big snap.

Ultimately, I'm happy being able to throw as far as I do. I'm working on consistency now. But who doesn't want more snap? I'm just not sure I want to mess up my game to get it.

 

[Timko]

Big snap was all the rage a while back on DGR, but it seems like everyone kind of gave up on it because no one was able to get it...either that or everyone got it and moved on, in which case I'd like to hear your experiences.

I find it really hard to hit it big consistently. I work a lot, and don't practice that much as far as distance anymore. I found that if I wasn't working on that type of snap day in and day out, it would come and go during rounds (mostly go). Personally, I find that there are plenty of strokes to be made up under 300' than there are to be made up over 400'.

 

[pdorries]

Yeah blake is definitely right... (big surprise, driving guru!) the snap is the main thing. If you want to throw farther, I think the REAL key, underneath all the talk about form and technique, is repetition and more repitition. That being said, if you aren't trying to throw farther you probably won't throw much farther. If you are however actively watching new videos of top pros' form and reading threads on form and distance and you are combining that with lots of field practice and repetition, your distance will slowly increase over time.

I've gone from maxing out at 250 when I started 3 1/2 years ago to maxing out in the 500+ range and the only real thing I can say that did it was lots and lots of throws, nothing I ever changed or tweaked really added a ton of distance, just constantly working toward the right form and good snap. I don't think I'm anywhere near where I want to be with the consistency at the longer distances, but that will come with MORE throws and repetition.

Blake... your description of the player who can throw a roc 360 vs the player who can throw the roc 300 was right on! the player who can throw the roc 360 is going to be able to control it much better at 300 for sure. Thats why I am okay with just going to a field and working on my snap and throw, because when I do decide to go play on the course, I can do shots with better, more controlable discs than I could before. The 11x firebird is a staple in my rotation now because I can reach 330-375 foot holes with it and I know what it is going to do, every time (get stable, haha)...


so if you are trying to pass the last big hump, just keep working on it, like Robbie Bratten said in one of his videos or at a clinic or something, he would just go throw until his arm hurt and he couldn't feel it anymore, as long as you arent physically hurting yourself, just keep throwing over and over

 

[Lithicon]

I find it hard to believe that the repetition could be good if you're doing it incorrectly. As repetition builds muscle memory and if you're doing something wrong, it only enforces it more. So to say just keep throwing isn't quite the way to go about it, learning to do it correctly, THEN throw more to get completely comfortable with it and then you'll build muscle memory of that and it'll be second nature. Because unlearning/learning something different takes longer because you'll find yourself reverting back to muscle memory until you learn the memory of the newer form.

And, as Blake said you're going to suck balls if you take the leap to change your form up and build snap is of course true. He told me that, and I knew it would happen, as that's where I'm sitting currently and I'm struggling. But, it'll mostly be for a short term, till you get it down memory wise and you'll eventually get it as long as you're doing it correctly.

 

[Blake_T1]

the snap is the main thing. If you want to throw farther, I think the REAL key, underneath all the talk about form and technique, is repetition and more repitition. That being said, if you aren't trying to throw farther you probably won't throw much farther.

yah. in the long run reps are really what solidifies everything, both in terms of making changes and simply fine tuning/mastering techniques.

the year of my breakthrough i was throwing 250+ drives 6-7 nights a week in a field.

i've done enough lesson work with players though to know that certain methods work for certain people but not well for others. those who have a big sports background, are athletic, and tend to "figure things out" easily are quite likely to have a breakthrough if they just keep plugging away.

for a large chunk of players, especially those with lots of "noise" in their throw, numerous reps will often establish muscle memory for bad habits (or cement them if they are already ingrained). a lot of it is a balance... choosing little things to work on and giving sufficient drill-time to improve upon those things.

something that is common from my experiences giving lessons (and also the reasons why i am VERY selective now in who i choose to work with in lessons) is that roughly 85% of the players i work with are either too uncoordinated to make even the slightest change to their throw at will and/or are too embarrassed having a few bad throws in front of someone else that they abandon any change we are working on. e.g. someone who swings the disc wide away from their body before the power zone... doing some throws giving them the sole goal of keeping the disc tight and watching them perform throw after throw exactly the same as they always throw. for these types of people repetition probably won't help them much.

it's for these reasons i don't recommend anyone who doesn't throw on par with "the last plateau" to work on snap.

for the most part, i find maybe 1 in 200 disc golfers are willing to drill/train seriously enough to get rapid results. masterbeato's 3-week progression from low snap to huge snap wasn't a fluke. he was throwing 500+ throws a day every day for 3 weeks working on making that happen.

 

[rehder]

Just throwing a lot in a field wont guarantee, that you will learn how to throw 400+. If this where the case (good) Golf-pros wouldnt make a very good living teaching good and bad players how to become better. Because you would just go to a driving range and hit balls. Granted there are a few who will learn to be better golfers this way, but they are by far in the minoriety.

Hell, David Leadbetter reworked Nick Faldo's swing, and Nick Faldo was already a top professional at the time.This would amount to a 1000+ rated player approaching Blake asking him to remodel his entire throwing motion.


I have been back and forth over the 400ft barrier a couple of times last year, and been mostly over it this year. For me the change was changed by a couple of different things.

When I wasnt hitting it. I used a lot of power in my throw when trying to throw far. I also typically had to do a little hop/step-through, after my release. (Now even when I try to nut it, Im usually well balanced and most of the energy is transferred to the disc, so Im not unbalanced and seldom need to step-through.

The things I (think I) changed was

1) get disc in close to right pec
2) delay pull (I was pulling too early, hence my arm would uncock too early and I ended up throwing more around(as opposed as to hitting towards your target line) my body
3) Focus on Brads hammer! For me this is a very point. I want to keep my hand on the opposite side of the disc for as long as possible. When I miss a throw today it is caused by 2+3. When I hit my throws I try to keep thinking about trying to keep my hand on the opposite side of the disc.

All these things are described pretty thoroughly on these forums.

To be able to break through that plateau the easiest is to get a very knowledgable coach, who can specifically identify at what point you are at, and then DO THE DRILLS that he or she prescribes. 2nd fastest is talking about stuff on here, and finding out where about your throw is with specific deficiencies and then DOING DRILLS to try and correct these deficiencies.

 

[Mike C]

I use the x step, except with my back foot I step in front of my front foot rather than behind it. Just more comfortable with that method.

this successfully blocks any power you could gain from hip rotation.

Wow, I feel stupid. I just compared the two inside, just running through the steps, and I completely see what you mean. I would not be surprised if this change adds another 50 feet to my throws. Damn.

 

[Blake_T1]

Hell, David Leadbetter reworked Nick Faldo's swing, and Nick Faldo was already a top professional at the time.This would amount to a 1000+ rated player approaching Blake asking him to remodel his entire throwing motion.

the thing with this is that... it's easier for a 1000+ rated player to make significant changes to their throw than it is for someone who maxes at 320'. in most cases the 1000 rated player already has the most difficult concepts down and they should be able to throw with snap no matter what other changes occur. there will be a period of adjustment where they will likely play worse golf but they are also most likely to master those changes at a faster rate than the 320' thrower. the 320' thrower likely needs to make 2 significant changes just to reach the 380'ish plateau and being that they are peaking at 320', there's a good chance this will be a fairly difficult struggle (although still easier than learning how to snap it hard).

 

[gretagun]

I use the x step, except with my back foot I step in front of my front foot rather than behind it. Just more comfortable with that method.

this successfully blocks any power you could gain from hip rotation.

Wow, I feel stupid. I just compared the two inside, just running through the steps, and I completely see what you mean. I would not be surprised if this change adds another 50 feet to my throws. Damn.

No worries, that's what's so great about this place. People are here to help each other learn, and come to this site for advice.

 

[masterbeato]

when i finally got to hit it big i would remember what i did and throw as hard as i could. next day, it would not be there anymore so i had to keep relearning how to do it.

throws with displacement, physically feel significantly different then throws that do not have displacement. my displacement throws and ultimately ones that go far, one of the main things i feel is like i hot glued my index finger pad to a table and ripped it off the table, and after that the feeling of effortless, once you get that effortless feeling in your throwing you think to yourself "wow if i could throw only that far like that, imagine if i threw it harder." and next time you throw it as hard as you can and it usually goes significantly farther. sometimes you even get the feeling like you totally killed it, but it was still the feeling of effortless.

i am to the point now where i can hit it every single time, but some days i would have to work myself in the field for a few minutes to get the snap down, once i do i am good for the entire day and it does not disapear on me that day at all, never this year have i went to the field and not figured out how to get the snap down and that took me almost 3 years to do. i know that in the future i can just go out to the course and it will just be there every single time.

 

[rehder]

Hell, David Leadbetter reworked Nick Faldo's swing, and Nick Faldo was already a top professional at the time.This would amount to a 1000+ rated player approaching Blake asking him to remodel his entire throwing motion.

the thing with this is that... it's easier for a 1000+ rated player to make significant changes to their throw than it is for someone who maxes at 320'. in most cases the 1000 rated player already has the most difficult concepts down and they should be able to throw with snap no matter what other changes occur. there will be a period of adjustment where they will likely play worse golf but they are also most likely to master those changes at a faster rate than the 320' thrower. the 320' thrower likely needs to make 2 significant changes just to reach the 380'ish plateau and being that they are peaking at 320', there's a good chance this will be a fairly difficult struggle (although still easier than learning how to snap it hard).

yes, no disagreeing here, my point was just that the willingness to enlist the aid of a coach, and listen and do the drills prescribed is much higher in golf. As soon as people (where I live anyway) can throw 275-300 feet they basically feel like, they cant be taught anything from anybody else, that whey would not pick up on their own.

 

[Mike C]

Well I tried to practice my timing and re-learn my x step. Had a couple or disgusting throws, but on hole #10 in Canton (600+ ft. drive) I did get my furthest I ever have by about 15-20 feet. It's a start. Used my Surge for that throw, first time it's been taken to the course in months.

I was playing with a few different things so today was mostly re-learning form. I think this weekend I'll do better.

 

[erb]

ways to add d:
1. learn to throw a distance line.
2. throw a longer disc.
3. learn to throw with more snap.

#3 is the only REAL distance increase... that is, a distance increase that isn't already available to everyone else without changing their technique.
...
basically, to break this plateau you have the choice of working on technique until you can throw with more snap and probably f'ing up your game big time in the short run at the hope of long term distance gains or you can experiment with making the disc fly farther given your power level.

So got any tips/techniques on increasing snap?
I've been trying to figure out how I can get even more snap.
last year I did a little experimenting with the way I thought of snap before I got hurt. I went from thinking about snap kind of like I was snapping a towel straight out away from me and towards the basket, to a new way of thinking about it. My new way was like my arm was a big rope wrapped up around the disc, like those fancy Tops that you can buy with the string that you wind around the peg and pull it, to get it spinning really fast. What I think with the "Towel" technique is I get a better forward Velocity, and with the "Top & String" technique I get much higher RPM's. I think the ideally way would be something in between both techniques for a faster forward velocity and more RPM's.

Although before I got hurt I did see some potential in the "Top & String" unfortunately I only got in a few throws.
1st I would throw a star Teebird flat and I wold get these really gradual turnover lines hitting the ground around the 425' range, I think If I can get more height it will hyzer back for a fairly long throw maybe out to 525 ft. Or I can throw it with a hyzer to begin with. Or I'm thinking about getting a more overstable disc.
2nd I seem to be holding on to it longer, so that it would come out of my hand when my hand is around 12-2 o'clock. I think I've read something like the bigger throwers on the tour release the disc "at a latter time" on the disc/clock.

But anyways I'm planning on giving it more testing this year. Got any thoughts?

 

[Lithicon]

If you're throwing Teebirds 425 then you've got the snap. Throw something like an OLF, Destroyer, Nuke, or force and I'm sure you'll see 450-500. Not saying you can't try to further your goal to increase your distance/snap, you're definitley getting more snap than most here though.

 

[Blake_T1]

So got any tips/techniques on increasing snap?

there's tons... i've written tons... i'm sure a few people can probably chime in the ones that have worked best for them.

the top & string you are talking about is a method that generates hyper spin. it is also equivalent to forcing a short arm type of action on your drive (it generates tremendous wrist extension).

 

[scoopa]

What has helped me is learning to pivot better. I used to "pivot" almost flat footed. That gives knee pain and a slow pivot.

Since I have figured out a good pivot 7 things have happened:

1. No knee pain
2. Faster rotation
3. Truly clearing the hips
4. more snap
5. weight forward!
6. more effortless throws
7. and I can snap a towel better :lol:

1 change in form led to 7 good things! #1 being the most important. I would have eventually torn something.

 

[biodarwin]

when i finally got to hit it big i would remember what i did and throw as hard as i could. next day, it would not be there anymore so i had to keep relearning how to do it.

I am going through this very thing right now. It was better to know I was not the only one.

 

[jubuttib]

I am going through this very thing right now. It was better to know I was not the only one.

Me three. Not "big" big, but way bigger than before.

 

[Mike C]

Well, today was a blast. The weather was perfect, played nearly 100 holes.

My drives are slowly getting further as I refine my form. I notice myself keeping my drives lower and flatter, pivoting on my right foot better, having a full follow through and making the disc rip out of my hand nicely.

My longest throw on flat ground today was about 15 feet short of a 435 foot hole, with a broken in Pro Firebird with a mild left to right crosswind. It was about 15 feet high at the apex and dipped right because of the wind, then faded back about 8 feet off the ground. It moved left to right maybe 10 feet, it was really pretty. Another nice one was ripping my Teebird dead straight for I'm guessing 425-450 off an elevated teepad on a 600+ foot hole, then later that same round throwing it dead straight with a typical TB fade at the end on a 365 foot hole and parking less than 1 foot from the pin.

The biggest surprise of the day came from my putters. Off an elevated teepad (12' or so) I threw for a clean ~350 straight drive. Flat ground I was launching repeated controlled 310 foot line drives, and threw a few in the 320-340 range.

Still not ripping it out to 450, much less 500 like some of you guys can, but I'm happy with the slight increase in distance and the better accuracy. All in due time. I'll try to remember to make a few driving videos soon. One of me doing a max distance rip, and another of me doing my standing still wizard drive.

@Mr Scoopa: I see what you mean about the pivot. Until this month I never even used a pivot motion. Today on some of my throws I was pivoting so much I had to turn back around some just to watch my drive. I feel a huge difference in my driving from doing the pivot.

Thanks for the tips, this place is a huge help.