Mcbeth or Lizotte off arm motion?

[Discgolferinsweden]

Hi!

I wonder what you think is the "best" off arm motion to create power/speed etc. Mcbeth seems to more active use his off arm to create more force/speed forward while Lizotte more just want to keep it tight (little less active?)..

I think that Mcbeths way should create more and thatś why he can throw so far even if he is so short (he uses all of his mass into the throw)?!

I think we need a discussion about this...

 

[Nenja]

Tobias?

Valid question, especially since im currently trying to get my form under control for the spring (if it ever comes).

 

[Shamis]

I have noticed that having the off arm out from the body and then pulling it in as you approach the hit generates a little more power than just tucking it the whole time. It makes sense since you're essentially converting the momentum of your off arm swing into your rotational force.

 

[billyjacko]

I personally think it's easiest to get good off arm action if you think of the off shoulder instead. If you concentrate on leveraging the off shoulder forward just before/at the top of the back swing, the arm will come in and assist with spin. The part many overlook is the swim move at the hit. If you watch closly, all top pros have some backwards action in their off arm as the disc hammers outward from the power pocket. It's the last bit of effort of the off side trying to leverage forward that shows your getting everything into the disc. You can see what I mean by off side leveraging forward if you watch how Lizotte's off foot looks like it's pushing against the air behind him counter to the disc in front of him.

I guess my point is to get good off arm action, don't think about the off arm. The only thing you need to make sure is to keep it in tight so it doesn't slow your rotation down. If you concentrate on slamming your fist into your crotch like McBeth, it's not going to suddenly get you to throw like McBeth.

To answer the question though, Eagle and Simon are the furthest throwers on tour, mimicing their form is probably not a bad idea.

 

[slowplastic]

Pay most attention to where the upper arm to elbow is. The lower forearm and hand will push off in that swim move thing when the arm leverages back, but the initial movement is bringing the upper arm/elbow in to the torso. This makes the movements look a bit less different.

 

[Zanguini]

Hi!

I wonder what you think is the "best" off arm motion to create power/speed etc. Mcbeth seems to more active use his off arm to create more force/speed forward while Lizotte more just want to keep it tight (little less active?)..

I think that Mcbeths way should create more and thatś why he can throw so far even if he is so short (he uses all of his mass into the throw)?!

I think we need a discussion about this...

And yet... Lizzote has the better arm...

 

[slowplastic]

Also, the off arm's job isn't to get mass going forward to help you spin faster or anything. It's on the other side of your spine/axis/brace. You need to get it in tight, then it provides counterweight to swing your lead arm from. It gives you weight and leverage so that you can pull/swing the disc through the hit point. You'll see all these guys' left arms doing the "swim move" at the hit. The left side kind of stops as the front arm unloads the disc through the hit. That's them using the left side as counterbalance so they can swing the right arm against the left's weight. If you leave the left side behind then it'll slow you down, and if you try to get it too forward you don't have the counterweight and you're spinning freely instead of unloading the disc. It's not about getting forward quickly, it's about having leverage at the hit.

 

[mrosjnur]

I use this easy drill to get used to my left arm being close without having to think conciously about it. I just place a disc between my arm and body.

 

[billyjacko]

Also, the off arm's job isn't to get mass going forward to help you spin faster or anything.

This is something that took me a while to figure out. I would try to start the reach back with the off elbow and start the forward swing by crashing the arm in/down/around kind of all over the place. It caused that chicken wing where the off arm looks like an n instead of a v in the backswing. The swing is so much about control and balance that throwing the weight of your arm around is just counter productive.

 

[sidewinder22]

Also, the off arm's job isn't to get mass going forward to help you spin faster or anything. It's on the other side of your spine/axis/brace. You need to get it in tight, then it provides counterweight to swing your lead arm from. It gives you weight and leverage so that you can pull/swing the disc through the hit point. You'll see all these guys' left arms doing the "swim move" at the hit. The left side kind of stops as the front arm unloads the disc through the hit. That's them using the left side as counterbalance so they can swing the right arm against the left's weight. If you leave the left side behind then it'll slow you down, and if you try to get it too forward you don't have the counterweight and you're spinning freely instead of unloading the disc. It's not about getting forward quickly, it's about having leverage at the hit.

^ Right on for the most part.

GG probably has the best distance technique with the off arm, pure leverage, but it's more moving parts so not as good for consistency/accuracy. He brings the off arm up out of the way in the backswing and forward into the brace, then swims/chops down behind him counterweighting the throwing arm forward.


Marc Jarvis with hand on thigh is one of my favorites, probably easiest to learn, and if you ever have back issues this is the way to go for sure:


Orangutan hands is why McBeth throws as far as does:

 

[billyjacko]

Orangutan hands is why McBeth throws as far as does:

Woah, I've never heard this before. How does hand size translate to distance potential? He can grip harder thus leverage out better with more speed?

 

[DiscFifty]

"GG probably has the best distance technique with the off arm, pure leverage..."

Paige Pierce seems to mimic this form.

 

[Discgolferinsweden]

But then you Actually thinks that you should use your off arm as leverage forward in the beginning of the weight shift Into the brace and then as a counterweight when the throwing arm accelerates from the powerpocket?

I'm thinking of getting all that rear side weight Into the front side brace so we don't leave any weight behind!?..

 

[slowplastic]

But then you Actually thinks that you should use your off arm as leverage forward in the beginning of the weight shift Into the brace and then as a counterweight when the throwing arm accelerates from the powerpocket?

Pretty much. I think the important thing is it gets in close and then acts as leverage/counterweight for the right arm to swing through the hit. Don't think about getting it forward early/fast or anything weird, the important thing is leverage at the hit.

Think of it as providing leverage and through that lens watch the top tier pro's forms.

 

[sidewinder22]

Woah, I've never heard this before. How does hand size translate to distance potential? He can grip harder thus leverage out better with more speed?

Nothing to do with grip strength really although it probably does as well, just from a mechanical leverage stand point and how all your arm levers all stack/couple together and extending the arm wingspan more than normal. If you have two identical length levers(double/triple/quad.. pendulum) or arms, but they are made up of different lower arm/upper arm/hand/shoulder ratio dimensions, it's like shifting gears. Shorter levers closer to the body turn faster and can put more force into a longer lever at the end like moving the fulcrum on a seesaw. All the top throwers that are on the average or shorter side have skinny shoulders.

So if you changed the length ratio of this double pendulum Dingle Arm, you can greatly vary the max amount of speed and force the lower arm is going to hit with.

 

[sidewinder22]

"GG probably has the best distance technique with the off arm, pure leverage..."

Paige Pierce seems to mimic this form.

Yep, I was going to mention PP as well, but GG exaggerates it more. Probably why PP is more consistent than GG has been playing golf. Drew Gibson used to do the same move and has always been known as a bomber, but more recently changed more like McBeth/Jarvis style and his golf consistency seems to have improved along with it.

 

[measke]

Mcbeth gets his off arm to the side before he starts swinging forward. Seems to me the same logic as with back leg - get the arm and back leg to forward facing position, so that they are not dead weight that is pulled along during the forward swing. As the forward swing starts, the off arm and back leg are actually rotating backwards relative to the forward turning body - the sum of their motion makes it look like that they are standing still relative to the ground. Also, the left side will cause the right side with the disc to rotate clockwise due to conservation of angular momentum and thus actively cause the disc to accelerate forward. I see how this could seem as the left side providing leverage to the right side for unloading, since the left side is standing still relative to the ground. I think the left side standing still can be optimal for throw consistency and accuracy.

Expanding the spectrum to Feldberg: he moves his off hand forward at the same speed&timing as the throwing hand. He still stops the hand relative to the ground during unloading of the right arm. I think bringing the off arm in with speed will provide more forward leverage, however for a shorter interval of time, so your unloading has to happen more quickly. Once full counterrotation has been achieved with the off arm, it will stop together with the right arm – so by that time all the possibility to accelerate the disc forward from off arm motion has ended. Or another way to think about this is that it no longer provides leverage.

Lizotte seems to be have a combination of both versions - upper arm coming to the side before forward swing and lower arm together with forward swing.

With regards to swimming motion - I think just stopping the arm at the side is also OK. Just stopping could be even better for consistency and accuracy. Or who knows, maybe the pros actively fine tune the power of their throws with this motion

All in all, I think bringing the off arm in with a lot of speed will provide power but decrease accuracy. Bringing it in with 0 speed can allow you to stay balanced very well, which would be optimal for consistency and accuracy. Good balance can help power other contributors to the throw and thus provide indirect power to the shot. Just try the different options and see what works for you.