Moving from understable to overstable

[treehugger87]

My throw has developed to the point that I'm turning over the discs in my bag that are understable such as an Avenger SS, which I use as my main driver right now. So I need suggestions for new discs to try out for my main driver or an idea of where to draw the line for overstability at this point. I'm not sure if I posted this in the right place, but any suggestions would be awesome.

 

[keltik1]

what all are you throwing now?

 

[treehugger87]

The drivers I carry right now are an D Avenger SS, an ESP Avenger SS, a Z Nuke SS, a DX Valkyrie and a Blizzard Destroyer.

 

[Itchy1]

Keep throwing those discs and release them at a hyzer angle. If you're releasing them at 7 or 8 o'clock and they still anney, then get more stable discs.

 

[Stringbean]

What's your average max distance on a usable line? You could start out with a Teebird and see how that flies for you. Other options might be a Wraith or Surge (SS).

Are you turning over the Blizzard Destroyer? Those are fairly stable in Champ/Star plastic, not sure how they fly in Blizzard plastic.

 

[treehugger87]

My usable line distance is in the 325'-350' range. As for the BC Destroyer it turns over too.

 

[keltik1]

Blizz Destro's can be weird. you have to throw them lid smooth to get good flight out of them. at least the super light ones (130's).

The A-ss is flippy from jump street. The Valk in fresh DX form is considered by many the best version currently in production (myself included).

Some discs to try that would be "straighter": XL, XS, Teebird, Eagle-L, TL, Champ Leopard, River, Saint, Cyclone,

also work on being smooth with your form and preserving the disc plane throughout your throwing motion and into the flight.

 

[Blake_T1]

All of the discs he mentioned basically power cap in the 330-350' range, that is, they start getting mega squrirrely around then.

There aren't a ton of models in the higher speed range that are only a notch more overstable, most tend to jump 2 or more notches.

Sme that come to mind are the flash, SL, Striker, and surge SS.

 

[treehugger87]

Until just recently the A-SS had always been a straight-flying disc for me. I did some field work on a windy day about a week ago and that's when it started turning over. I chalked it up to the wind and left it alone. Then yesterday I went out and played a round with a few friends and on the first tee I grabbed the A-SS like I always do, threw it down the fairway and it turned over and was gone. The first words out of my friends mouth were "I think it's time to move to something more stable" as my disc sailed off and down the hill off the first fairway. Now the only driver in my bag that doesn't turn over is the Nuke SS, which is flying straight with a soft turn at the end, and I'm having to use it in place of my A-SS. I have a DX Wraith that I was thinking about getting out and throwing. It was a gift from a friend and I stashed it away for when I felt like I could throw it at the right speed. I may go pick up a Surge SS too. I thought the S-SS would be the next disc to try, but I wasn't entirely sure. Thanks for the feedback everybody. Now if I can just talk the wife into going disc shopping.

 

[Blake_T1]

The avenger SS gets way too understable if you overpower it. Imo, it's flight is closer to a roadrunner for anyone with 350+ power. The nuke SS will behave the same but it burns over even harder, although it takes 30' more power than the Avenger SS to do that.

Basically, everything in your bag is pretty squirrely. The valk is the least, but in dx it will eventually get squirrely with age.

 

[Stringbean]

My power range is about the same as yours, 330-360. I have a beat up Pro Wraith and it does turn over easily when thrown flat. The DX Wraith will start out stable but that won't last long in DX plastic. I have another in max weight Star Plastic and that flies just right for me. Maybe try out your DX and if it seems to fit your needs, buy one in Star or Champ plastic.

PD Freak or Boatman might be a couple of discs to look into as well.

 

[treehugger87]

I'm playing a round in the morning to test out the Wraith and see if there's any of my other discs in my collection that may need to move into my bag. The Surge SS is probably the next on my to-buy list and maybe a new Wraith if the one I have is flying good for me tomorrow.

 

[Blake_T1]

Just so you know, the problem you are facing is a very common one. For the past 5 years or so companies have been making "pro" drivers and "beginner" drivers and hardly anything in between. I think this is why the flight chart testing has gotten so tedious since 90% of drivers aren't targeted at the serious but not pro level power thrower.

 

[JR]

My standard recommendation is the Beast which for all intents and purposes is like a less fading Z Surge SS of the early runs. I don't know how current Surge SSs fly from personal experience because the first one fly like Z Surges and i've heard reports of the later S-SSs flying more understable now. Not knowing what the difference is flipping or just not fading as much or both it is hard to say. I imagine S-SS and know that the Beast would work better. And the title of the thread according to what most need is moving from understable to straight/stable.

 

[Blake_T1]

Beasts have half a notch more consistent fade than the avenger ss but really aren't more stable overall. The valk has more consistent fade than the beast.

The surge ss has similar fade to an sl but is a half notch easier to turn.

 

[JR]

The Sls i have thrown and owned have all had more LSS than all the Beasts i've thrown. I have only thrown FLX Avenger SSs which at my power are rollers out of the box. To me the SLs have been impossible to turn without wind and they are more HSS than the Beasts or the probably FR Surge SSs. Meaning none of those turn at full power for me in calm weather but the SL needs more front quarter wind to turn than the others. I agree that the Beast of no configuration is really overstable. That is why i thought that the original poster needs a straight disc like the Beast instead of an overstable one like the thread title suggests. I have only thrown the FLX Avenger SS and it turns like a broken in DX Valk=a lot and Blake's fade characterisation is accurate enough for me regarding the SL but i'd need to add that the fade of the Beasts manufactured within the two previous years is less than that of premium plastics Valks. And on par with broken in DX Valks meaning the amount does not change much and both have little fade. With the Valk having less when broken in and more/the same when new depending on your speed/spin ratio.

To be perfectly clear i state that the Beasts made in the last tow years on average are more HSS by a lot vs an Avenger FLX but having less LSS. Thus i'm interested in seeing how Avenger SSs of other plastics behave vs modern Beasts. When Blake wrote that Valks have more consistent fade than the Beasts i'm not sure of what he meant. Across plastics that would be accurate of older Beasts than two years or newer. The newer ones fade the same each time for me. And Beasts are a moving target because there was the original and different shape and the new mold and the more overstable mold since about two years back that does not flip for a 400'+ 20 revs per second thrower. Like the new molds did. Since Avenger SSs fade consistently too much for ultimate distance for me given my spin constraints i'd say they are very consistent for the LSS even factoring in the less than desirable HSS for the FLX. Other plastics may vary a lot i don't know. So i can't say that the fade of the Beast of any kind is more consistent than the Avenger SS of any kind. More consistent is not the same as the absolute amount fade anyway.

 

[isobar1]

I am kind of in the same range as you right now. I can hit about 350-400 with Blizzard discs, and about 350 with a Flash and Sword. I recently picked up a Lattitude 64 Saint, and I think this could fit the roll you are looking for. For me at about 350-400', It flies a lot like a roadrunner did for me when my power range was 300'. Max D shots, Straight tunnel shots and controllable Hyzers as long as I keep it to about 80% power.

 

[Blake_T1]

The avenger ss was basically a copy of the new beast mold. Flx plastic is the most inconsistent of them all. Both the avenger ss and beast pull in at -2 hss +2 lss. The beast is a touch longer, a touch faster, and a touch more predictable lss. My recommendations are based on getting significantly more consistent rather than "slightly" more consistent.

There's a huge demographic that shouldn't be throwing wraiths but discs like the avenger ss and beast are squirrely for. The original mold beast would have been a good choice for players in this range but since it doesn't exist anymore, there aren't a lot of options left overall.
In terms of more stable than the avenger ss but less stable than a wraith, it's a fairly short list and some models are dependent upon plastic.
Flash, wildcat, riptide (now discontinued), sl, surge ss, orc (in pro plastic), orion ls, striker... Are pretty much all that come to mind.

It's sort of like manufacturers think there's 2 kinds of players: those that should be throwing destroyers and those that should be throwing sidewinders, when in reality, most serious players fall somewhere in between.

If you want to see the valk stability vs the newer beast mold, watch someone throw them 500'. The beast will end up at least 50' farther to the right. This is about the same with a 20mph headwind.

 

[JR]

That would be true for the so called new mold that came years ago. Things have changed about two years ago for some reason. Stabilization process? I have a flippy old mold Beast and several much more HSS ones from two years back to current. That don't flip at all in calm weather thrown to 400'. On occasion i've seen tight s-curves with minimal flip at 410-420' but can't say if it was from wind or not. Adding a few degrees of hyzer in a headwind with the Beast is not a problem. Of course faster or relatively less spin throwers get more turn than i do. I flip Valks thrown as hard as the Beast going flat without flipping to 400'.

 

[Widdershins]

My throw has developed to the point that I'm turning over the discs in my bag that are understable such as an Avenger SS, which I use as my main driver right now. So I need suggestions for new discs to try out for my main driver or an idea of where to draw the line for overstability at this point. I'm not sure if I posted this in the right place, but any suggestions would be awesome.

When your power increases to the point where you need to step up in stability, a small step will likely work better than a large one. So abandoning your Avenger SS for a Predator(very overstable) won't help. Every disc of every run will be a little bit (sometimes a lot) different but if you picked up a Z Flash, a Z Surge SS and a Rogue you will find each of them slightly different and all very useful. One of these should do well to fit the slot of your primary driver and none of them is wide rimmed and so easier to control.

It seems to me there is a natural progression from understable to overstable then back to understable as a player's power and skills advance.

Most beginners gravitate to understable (as soon as they figure out there is such a thing as understable) discs as they are easier to control. With advances in power and skills a player learns how predictable and useful an overstable disc can be. If a player can get an overstable disc to fly straight initially then it will always hyzer out as it slows down.

Unfortunately the flight pattern of an overstable disc does not mirror all the various lines we need to hit. An understable disc can be manipulated (with adequate skill) to go in a whole variety of patterns, even a hyzer.

The shortest distance to a target is a straight line. The safest line to a target is often a straight line. The largest margin of error is often a straight line. The easiest way to throw a straight line is an slightly understable disc (understable for the individual player as stability is relative to the player, meaning that a disc which is overstable for you may be stable for me and understable for a big power thrower). While a perfectly straight line may be very difficult to achieve, the closer we can come to a straight line when needed, the better the result usually is.

The more experienced and more skilled the group of players the more they tend to rely on understable discs, especially on upshots or tunnels where the lines are the tightest.

I'm not sure it is possible or even advisable to try to leap frog the skill development progression from understable to overstable to understable discs. Yet it may be useful for a beginner to know the long term road map and keep practicing with understable discs.