New Course, Bakersfield CA.

[lamb]

Hart Park just northeast of town.


Although we've set up temp courses here for years we're finally installing a full 36 hole, championship caliber course.

When completed the Hart Park course will be one of the most challenging and varied courses in California.

18 holes on the hillside course...huge elevation changes and rugged terrain. 18 more down in the park with the trees and canals to contend with.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&s...88,-118.906832&spn=0.008705,0.016479&t=h&z=15
The hillside course is mostly south of Hill Road shown in the map above. Look for the dirt bike trails and the two white dots (water tanks).

The park course is located between Alfred Harrell Hwy and River Rd. Hopefully in the sat image you can see the vegetation, the canals and the Kern River itself at north end of the map.

You can get an idea of what the terrain on the hillside course is like below. I'm the studly one in the blue hat on the auger. (sorry for the low res phone cam pics)

More of the same

Steep terrain, rocky soil, water tank mandy, shirtless hippy, and your hero augering the hell out of the ground.

Installing a sleeve on the edge of the park among the trees. You can see some of the trees right behind the guys installing...er, holding beers.

So far we've got 18 baskets installed on the hillside course. No tee boxes poured yet. We've got a little more fund raising to do before we put in the other 18 and boxes.

I know I sound like a homer but this is going to be one kick-ass course. At our last big tournament there we had players from Modesto to Ventura show up to play...and that was with temp baskets. John from disCtribution can vouch for the difficulty of the hillside course.

When all is said and done we hope the course at Hart Park will put us on the DG map big time.

 

[lamb]

Here are some vids from back in early 2008 when we had temp holes set up.

This is #9 which I think is now #10 or 11. The hanging temp basket has been replaced with a Mach III and placed deeper into the trees.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYf1XjhtABQ&feature=related


This is probably the toughest hole on the course. Used to be #5. Might be #7 now. Too long and you're down a hill. Too short? Same thing. Too far right? Hey look, another hill to roll down. You can't really tell how brutal it is from the video until you see the last guy's (Chuck) shot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-eZBX3iFPc

Another brutal hole...the Spine hole. The profile view at the start of the clip will give you an idea of the slope. To far left or right on this hole and you're hosed.
The second guy to throw in this clip, the blonde guy, is Cole Ledbetter. Some of you Iowa guys probably know him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXkd1dpvJhk

 

[Cgkdisc]

Just curious who your experienced designer is so the course meets contemporary guidelines for championship courses?

 

[lamb]

Just curious who your experienced designer is so the course meets contemporary guidelines for championship courses?

Chuck,

I didn't intend for the phrase 'championship caliber' to mean that it conforms to any official guidlines per the PDGA (or your vast course designing experience).

Would you like me to go back and edit my post?

 

[Cgkdisc]

Championship or not, I just like to hear there are experienced designers involved to help people with major course projects like it sounds your team is undertaking. There are several qualified guys in CA and maybe you're already working with one. They can help you avoid some more subtle problems new designers miss.

 

[some call me...tim?]

They can help you avoid some more subtle problems new designers miss.

As someone who hopes to design a course or billion in the future, I'd be interested to hear what your referring to. I know some basic design no-no's (I seem to find a couple at most courses around here), but what are some of these more subtle ones?

 

[Cgkdisc]

Interference issues, sight lines, dealing with blind situations, luck reduction techniques, proper lengths for the skill level being designed for are just a few.

 

[some call me...tim?]

Gotcha. Those seem kind of like more of the main things to look for in course design rather than the more subtle things, but I guess you've seen more poorly designed courses than I have.

I don't think that you necessarily have to have an experienced designer though to make a good course. Here in the Seattle area, SeaTac is our "manly" course, and my favorite around. As far as I know, the guy that designed it didn't have any prior experience, but put together a great layout, in my opinion. My only gripes with the design are that he considers all holes par 3 when there's at least 6 or 7 legitimate par 4s on it. That and one hole has too much of a luck factor in play, but besides that, it ranks up as one of my all time faves.

 

[lamb]

Interference issues, sight lines, dealing with blind situations, luck reduction techniques, proper lengths for the skill level being designed for are just a few.

Thanks for your input.

The guys that designed the course are people that have played these lines for at least the last decade. While they definately lack the expertise that you and many others have they did take into account the factors you listed below.

Thanks again.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Very few have the expertise to actually design a course from scratch for particular skill sets defined by the designers and adopted by the PDGA and then take the time to make the changes needed based on actual hole scoring stats cross referenced to ratings. Lots of people think they can design just because they've played a lot of courses. Jack Nicklaus quickly realized he knew very little when he switched into course design and learned from the ground up. Tiger has said the same thing.

In my experience, less than 50 courses anywhere have really been "completed" in terms of taking the hole scoring data and making adjustments accordingly. Most designers and even those with experience focus on the beauty and coolness factors and discount the technical underpinnings of the holes. That's mostly because they don't know how to do it. There's no book to read. It's mostly learning from others for now.

If you actually work with an experienced designer, you 'll be surprised at what's being missed. Those who have worked with Houck, Monroe, Gentry, Doyle, Duvall and several other veterans understand the things that were missed or could be done better, especially using the new technology we have developed that's not available outside our designers group. I'm hopeful that more people will take advantage of this experienced designer resource. I'm trying to get out there more and travel again to work with new designers and do more teaching than designing.

 

[Jerry r]

Hmmm ... hot day, big water tank, I got an auger...hmmm...

Congrats on the new course and Kudos for putting in the work.

 

[crosstrek]

I've been playing this course for a few years, and helped install the baskets with the OP. Our designers are very proud of the course and want to make this a venue that will host large PDGA events. I'm going to do what I can to help them.

I haven't been playing long, but I've played Oak Grove, Sylmar, La Mirada, Huntington Beach, Lake Casitas, Santa Maria, etc. One thing I can say is that Hart Park has holes that are different than anything else I've played. That alone will make it a place you'll want to play when you have a chance.

There are maybe 2 holes where you can miss a short putt, and end up 100 feet down a steep hill (cliff). These are maybe some of the things Chuck is talking about, but we love it and whether you make the putt or not, you'll love the challenge.

 

[mr.smOOOth]

I love the sound a disc makes when it glances off the water tank! I went down there about 4 or 5 years ago for the CVS. First round, throw a Buzzz, park the hanging basket. Second round, turn my Buzzz over and land in the maze of gnarly trees. Had to literally crawl to my disc. Take a 6, or was it a 7?
Glad to hear the course is going to be permanent.

 

[Cgkdisc]

There are maybe 2 holes where you can miss a short putt, and end up 100 feet down a steep hill (cliff).

Since I haven't seen these holes I can't really comment on them in particular. The following comments may have no bearing on this particular course project but are cautionary notes for many projects we've seen:

Good design, safe design and "fun" design unfortunately are not always the same thing. Windmills on putt-putt courses are fun but not found on ball golf greens. Less experienced designers are likely to be more unfairly punitive and have more luck elements in courses than experienced designers all in the name of fun or "that's how we've always done it, we like it and are doing the work so we get to make the call."

It's not uncommon to find popular courses that have some poor design issues. Dela is a good example out your way. But locals will defend it to the max. However, if there's any fundamental rule in course design, it's not to have crossing fairways. I doubt there's a single ball golf course with crossing fairways. Popularity and course design are almost independent aspects of a course. Playing on cool terrain wherever the baskets are located blinds most players to weak design issues.

 

[crosstrek]

There are maybe 2 holes where you can miss a short putt, and end up 100 feet down a steep hill (cliff).

Let me correct my statement and say that there are no cliffs on the Hart Park course. There are slopes. I once missed a short putt at Sylmar, and the disc rolled over 200 feet from the basket. Sylmar has no cliffs either.

 

[lamb]

I love the sound a disc makes when it glances off the water tank! I went down there about 4 or 5 years ago for the CVS. First round, throw a Buzzz, park the hanging basket. Second round, turn my Buzzz over and land in the maze of gnarly trees. Had to literally crawl to my disc. Take a 6, or was it a 7?
Glad to hear the course is going to be permanent.

Both the water tank hole and the 'hanging basket' holes are part of the permanent course. We've even added a couple of pin positions to both of those holes.

Wait until you see the 'park' course. Not as extreme as the hillside but challenging and very fun.

 

[Working Stiff]

Very few have the expertise to actually design a course from scratch for particular skill sets defined by the designers and adopted by the PDGA and then take the time to make the changes needed based on actual hole scoring stats cross referenced to ratings. Lots of people think they can design just because they've played a lot of courses. Jack Nicklaus quickly realized he knew very little when he switched into course design and learned from the ground up. Tiger has said the same thing.

In my experience, less than 50 courses anywhere have really been "completed" in terms of taking the hole scoring data and making adjustments accordingly. Most designers and even those with experience focus on the beauty and coolness factors and discount the technical underpinnings of the holes. That's mostly because they don't know how to do it. There's no book to read. It's mostly learning from others for now.

If you actually work with an experienced designer, you 'll be surprised at what's being missed. Those who have worked with Houck, Monroe, Gentry, Doyle, Duvall and several other veterans understand the things that were missed or could be done better, especially using the new technology we have developed that's not available outside our designers group. I'm hopeful that more people will take advantage of this experienced designer resource. I'm trying to get out there more and travel again to work with new designers and do more teaching than designing.

Well, who is going to pay? I'd love to call John Houck up and give him 20 acres to go crazy on, but if the course is not going to generate any income how do I justify that to a park board. If I design it myself it will have a few good holes, a few that suck and all and all it will be an OK course that could be better and generates $0.00 income for the park district. OR, I can call John and pay him his fee and travel to design a fantastic course that will get the course designers group seal of approval...and it will generate $0.00 income for the park district. If the total income is still $0.00, why would anybody approve spending the taxpayers money on the extra fees?

If the park is not going to pick up the fee, who will? A local Club? First we have to come up with cash from non-existent sponsors attracted by our large group of invisible spectators for pro purses, now instead of depending on the combined talents of our members to design courses that is not good enough and we have to come up with more money to pay a course designer?

Blood from a turnip. Course designers are just like touring pros...trying to make money off a sport that generates no money. Until we convert to pay for play and the sport can generate money, most places will pass on generating a bill for the services of a course designer.

 

[lamb]

I'm curious as to what an expert designer would charge to design two 18 hole courses.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Liability issues and meeting good design guidelines has been an easy enough sell for Park Departments all over the country for having a qualified designer. In addition, many designers have donated hundreds or thousands of hours over the years doing design and installation finally starting to earn fees in the past 10 years or so. To not even find out who in your region might be willing to help out is not taking advantage of potential resources available. You may discover they will provide some help free.

The PDGA provides a guideline to help Park Departments choose a designer including guidelines on cost. http://www.pdga.com/documents/choosingacoursedesigner.pdf The design itself has the most lasting impact on players. The land being used is usually more valuable than anything being placed on it for disc golf. Not doing the best job possible to enhance its value for the community is not making the best use of a community asset. Do you suppose the Park Department would let the local ball golfers that own landscape equipment build a golf course without employing design experts?

My cover article in the Jan 2007 National Park & Rec magazine has helped many people get courses in their community and provides ways for them to fund the operation that have been successful all over. http://www.nrpa.org/content/default.aspx?documentId=5214 If you believe a course doesn't generate revenue for a community then you're not looking at the broader impact on the local merchants for daily play and the impact on the hospitality industry from tournaments if a course is done well. We have heard the Chamber here mention that people have moved to our community because of the disc golf courses nearby.

Stiff, your credibility is in question by comparing experienced course designers to touring pros. Our services are sought (yes) and paid for (yes) because of expertise that is valued by other Park professionals or entrepreneurs that recognize and are willing to pay for that value that goes way beyond design depending on the project. Many of us have gone to college and have expertise in landscape architecture, environmental knowledge and/or construction let alone the technical skills for doing the math for proper design lengths, GPS mapping and later validating the design. DG pros may have worked as hard to learn their skills but so far few players or spectators have been willing watch let alone pay to watch or for learning from them.

Near Bakersfield, It wouldn't surprise me that Dunipace at Innova or one of their other people would be willing to review the design free depending on the baskets being used. Otherwise former PDGA Commissioner Jim Challas who's done courses near San Jose might be able to get down that way.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I have an idea that can help anyone doing a course that doesn't have access to an experienced designer (or doesn't think they can afford one). Contact me and I'll send you the Excel evaluation form used in the PDGA Course Evaluation process. If you read about the various factors involved and try to optimize your course to get a better evaluation, you'll have done several things that should make your course better.

ck34 at aol.com