Nose Down - How do you know?

[Trevdor]

Hey guys, maybe a dumb question, but how do I know if I'm throwing nose down? Can you tell from the flight pattern? Should you be able to see the bottom of the disc?

I can only throw 250' but generally pretty straight, but then it dies at the end. No big skip like the pros get.

Thanks!
Trevor

 

[Aim For The Chains]

You shouldnt be able to see the stamp. Release should have wrist postioned like a firm handshake. If the disc rises the entire time from release and crashes to the ground thats nose up. Skips come from increased power/technique that generate more spin and disc speed etc.

 

[captain jack]

You will know, discs will go farther.

 

[NotActuallyChris]

I'm no expert so take with a grain of salt, but I think of nose up as the opposite of flutter in a way. Given an understable fairway driver or slower disc, flutter will make the disc turn over more than it should, and nose up will make it turn less. Will Schusterick said in one of his videos that a sign its nose up is you have trouble getting understable discs to turn over.

I recently discovered a better grip, and have noticed that despite a continued noodle arm throw, my understable discs are consistently (smoothly) turning.

 

[RFrance]

For me I haven't really noticed the difference in fade or turn but more crash and burn. If you throw nose up it will take off like an F16 but then lose steam and hyzer out. When thrown nose down it will take off like a helicopter with a slight rise and then pretty much a nice long, low level flight.

 

[j_mardis]

Two things will help you take control of your leading edge at release: wrist extension & thumb pressure.

Wrist extension is a simple change: Incorrect wrist position results in the leading edge of the disc up at release. Put your throwing hand at shoulder height with your fingers extended and hand vertical. Without moving anything but your wrist, point your fingers at the ground. This is the feeling of correct wrist position - unnatural to say the least. Grip a disc, repeat the wrist extension, and pay attention to the leading edge - up or level?

Thumb pressure: Add pressure to your thumb to fine tune the angle of the leading edge of your disc at release. Too much pressure will drive the disc into the ground prematurely and too little pressure will allow the nose to turn up just before the snap. This small change in pressure is one of the most challenging aspects to flight control due to the massive difference in result from such a small change in the throw.

Off axis torque is another piece of the puzzle, including wrist roll (turning the thumb over the top of the disc at release) and air bounce (turning the thumb under the disc). This image will show what the wrist does at release to create OAT. The movement from neutral to suppination at release will decrease stability (nose down = more D), and the movement from neutral to pronation will increase stability (nose up = less D).

I hope that isn't too wordy, but to understand exactly what your wrist is doing at release is crucial to make changes.

Jordan

 

[The Birdie Beast]

You shouldnt be able to see the stamp. Release should have wrist postioned like a firm handshake. If the disc rises the entire time from release and crashes to the ground thats nose up. Skips come from increased power/technique that generate more spin and disc speed etc.

IMO this is past the extreme, the only pro that comes close to this angle is val.

In distance simon and wiggins throw at an even higher anny-flex angle

IMO its more avoiding nose up, not trying to throw at the hardest nose down angle possible.

 

[Rockch4lk]

IMO this is past the extreme, the only pro that comes close to this angle is val.

IMO its more avoiding nose up, not trying to throw at the hardest nose down angle possible.

Sometimes in order to correct a form issue people have to go to the extreme first, and then adjust back from there. I did this with my baseball stance in high school. I used to always get under the ball so I raised my hands above my head in my batting stance to FORCE myself to get on top of the ball.

 

[The Birdie Beast]

Sometimes in order to correct a form issue people have to go to the extreme first, and then adjust back from there. I did this with my baseball stance in high school. I used to always get under the ball so I raised my hands above my head in my batting stance to FORCE myself to get on top of the ball.

I totally get where your coming from, maybe practice that angle downhill?

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

A big portion of discovery, is figuring out a way to feel something in the first place. Once you feel and see the results of what doing things right - looks like and the results - it's much easier to dial back from extremes.

Bonopane grip does this for many. Throwing nose down helps a couple different issues especially with drivers. Wide rims are harder to hold, so going nose down creates a better angle for your index finger to hook against.

 

[mcrow24]

I think the best way to know is if the disc fly's the pattern it is supposed to when you throw it. It if it's a straight disc and you get the nose up it's going to still fade to the left (for RH), if it's a disc with a lot of fade you'll probably get a disc that launches high and comes down like a lawn dart.

So, if a disc mostly flied the pattern it is designed to you probably will likely have the right angle. Of course if you are one of these big armed guys you might turn over some discs that are supposed to be that have some fade to them.

 

[j_mardis]

A big portion of discovery, is figuring out a way to feel something in the first place. Once you feel and see the results of what doing things right - looks like and the results - it's much easier to dial back from extremes.

You got it bomber. The feeling is the important part. Change how you think about an aspect of form and your form will change.

Birdie Beast, I disagree that Paul's wrist position is uncommon on tour - I feel the opposite is true. Most if not all pros have their wrist extended so the thumb is flat with the forearm at release. This is the most effective position to keep the nose down. Look at pics/vid from any tournament and you will see the position is common.

 

[The Birdie Beast]

Birdie Beast, I disagree that Paul's wrist position is uncommon on tour - I feel the opposite is true. Most if not all pros have their wrist extended so the thumb is flat with the forearm at release. This is the most effective position to keep the nose down. Look at pics/vid from any tournament and you will see the position is common.

I never said that it was uncommon, because you are right, its not. Your reply has nothing to do with my post.

 

[lyleoross]

Hey guys, maybe a dumb question, but how do I know if I'm throwing nose down? Can you tell from the flight pattern? Should you be able to see the bottom of the disc?

I can only throw 250' but generally pretty straight, but then it dies at the end. No big skip like the pros get.

Thanks!
Trevor

Interesting discussion, you're being misled, not intentionally, but it's a common discussion that has happened often. Pros throw all over the place, nose up, down, tipped side to side etc. They do it to accomplish different things with different throws. A nose up throw with plenty of torque will either pull a giant hyzer, or a giant flippy annie. If you're stalling it's due to inadequate torque. Unless of course you are pulling a bass drop, see other threads. Watch what Simon's disc does. It never stalls and falls out, it flies on a predetermined route that he's set for it top to bottom. That path looks like a stall but it isn't.

 

[Pbmercil]

Interesting discussion, you're being misled, not intentionally, but it's a common discussion that has happened often. Pros throw all over the place, nose up, down, tipped side to side etc. They do it to accomplish different things with different throws. A nose up throw with plenty of torque will either pull a giant hyzer, or a giant flippy annie. If you're stalling it's due to inadequate torque. Unless of course you are pulling a bass drop, see other threads. Watch what Simon's disc does. It never stalls and falls out, it flies on a predetermined route that he's set for it top to bottom. That path looks like a stall but it isn't.

The point about simons throw is nonsense. That is like the definition of a stall shot. Just because he's aiming the drop doesn't make it not a stall.

 

[Pbmercil]

IMO this is past the extreme, the only pro that comes close to this angle is val.

The "can't see the stamp" thing only really applies to level, line drive shots.

If you watch paul he will throw some extremely nose down low power upshots with an extreme wrist angle. I think its a big part of the reason he can throw a stable roc 200ft (sometimes even less) and still get it to fly dead straight and land flat with no fade at low power.

IMO its more avoiding nose up, not trying to throw at the hardest nose down angle possible.

I think that is definitely true.

Its also worth noting that if you're a lower powered thrower you can only get the nose so far down and have it still fly. My girlfriend instantly understood the different between nose up and nose down. The problem for her is that until she can start imparting more velocity into the disc nose down throws end up in the dirt after about 50 feet.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Off axis torque is another piece of the puzzle, including wrist roll (turning the thumb over the top of the disc at release) and air bounce (turning the thumb under the disc). This image will show what the wrist does at release to create OAT. The movement from neutral to suppination at release will decrease stability (nose down = more D), and the movement from neutral to pronation will increase stability (nose up = less D).

I hope that isn't too wordy, but to understand exactly what your wrist is doing at release is crucial to make changes.

Jordan

You're not really going to change a property of the disc by the way you throw it. You can make a relatively overstable disc turn just as you can make an understable disc resist turn and fade out early, but the disc is still the same. As to applying "OAT", which causes wobble (no wobble, no "OAT"), that can be done a number of ways.

 

[lyleoross]

The point about simons throw is nonsense. That is like the definition of a stall shot. Just because he's aiming the drop doesn't make it not a stall.

I'm going to disagree with you. Many beginning players think that what makes a disc fly is throwing it hard. It isn't, it's torque which gives the disc it's gyroscopic tendencies. Without proper torque, the disc loses it's flight properties before it hits the ground and fades hard to the left (RHBH). A disc with adequate torque doesn't fade, and the more torque, the longer and straighter the path. If you throw a putter like Simon, aka a Bass shot, the disc stalls like a plane does, but it maintains it's flight characteristics. It continues to spin such that the disc falls back, essentially flying until it hits the ground. If you make the same shot, with inadequate torque, the stall is different, the disc loses it's flight characteristics and falls like a wounded duck.

You are correct in the use of terminology, it is a stall, but the stall is very different from the "nose up" stall being discussed here. The "nose up" stall doesn't occur because the momentum of the disc no longer exceeds the speed needed to temporarily overcome gravity, it's because it's lost it's flight characteristics because it is no longer spinning fast enough to maintain those characteristics, and the disc fades hard to the left (RHBH).

I chose to distinguish between the two by pointing out that Simon's disc isn't stalling in the sense that a "nose up" disc does, and you are correct, that is confusing.

To get back on point, the "nose up" stall doesn't occur because the nose is up, it occurs because the disc loses it's flight characteristics due to inadequate torque. The stall isn't due to some inherent property that the disc has because it's been released with the nose up.

 

[Kodachrome]

Angles are more important first, IMO.. I'm sure op knows he could just generate more power with better form but that wasn't the question. I don't feel anybody is misleading anybody. If anything, you are providing very general information the op could misinterpret quite easily: Throw however you want as long as you throw hard enough and generate enough spin. not very helpful.

I agree his disc may be dying off due to lack of power, but that's not answering the question...

It's air resistance. It's not part of the disc at all but it is influenced by its position in the air in relation to its trajectory. Nose up is totally dependent upon the angle of release . Given enough time the spin will die and it will truly stall, and the harder he throws nose up in relation to trajectory, the more air resistance he generates, thereby getting much less distance than he could compared to someone throwing with the same form and power level but with the nose down. Yes, the pros throw many ways for many reasons. On a typical shot, we want to throw nose down in relation to trajectory to maximise time aloft. focus on throwing nose down and manipulating angles. That's considered good fundamentals, the basics of throwing a disc no matter how far you throw or how poor your form is. Just telling someone they can throw any which way as long as they generate enough power is missing the point.

 

[Kodachrome]

Scratch the not very helpful part, that was unnecessary. It is helpful to have a full understanding of what drives the flight.