orc or wraith

[frennis524]

I have been throwing a 175 champion orc for my distance driver, but I was wondering if someone could compare it to a champ wraith.

 

[DigIt]

From what I know of throwing them both, the Wraith (unless a good bit lighter than 175g) will be hella more overstable than the Orc. If you're turning over the Orc the Wraith would be nice, if not stick with the Orc until you do start turning it over.

 

[Mr. Wick]

A lot of guys around here have an orc and a wraith in the bag.

 

[Timko]

I have been throwing a 175 champion orc for my distance driver, but I was wondering if someone could compare it to a champ wraith.

The Wraith takes more to get it to it's cruising speed, but it's definitely faster.

 

[T-Bone1]

Neither! Use an Orion LF.

 

[Aaron_D]

The wraith is a few steps faster and better suited for different lines for different power players. If you are throwing around 400' the wraith will be good for low, straight line drive hyzer flips, big hyzers and big anhyzers while the orc will be a good roller and max D non golf line S curves. If you are throwing around 350 the wraith will only be good for big hyzers and low straight shots that fade and skip while the orc will be good for straight low line drive hyzer flips, anhyzers and hyzers. If you are throwing closer to 300' the orc will be good for hyzers and low flat shots while the wraith will probably be stable enough for your moderate overstable driver and maybe hyzers.

 

[black udder]

the SOLF isn't the same disc (IMO).

The champ wraith is a tad more understable than the star, so a champ in the 16x range after a few rounds will work as a hyzer flip or a big S shot for somebody throwing 350'. A new one in that weight will be flat to hyzer. I carry a couple for big open holes (we have a few).

I never cared much for the Orc, but it works really well for some folks. Me, I'd say give the wraith a try and use the one that works best for you.

You could also try a lighter Orc. Unless you're throwing over 450', I can't imagine the need for throwing a max weight disc.

 

[Micah1]

I don't throw max weight for distance drivers but saying you can't see a need for max weight plastics means you are closing your eyes, most every pro I know throws predominately max weight I wish they all new as much as you; I am sure their ratings would instantly fly past the 1040 barrier or at least jump by 20 points. People throw at different speeds at different angles with varying degrees of beneficial results, max weight is fine in most discs for golfers with a few years under their belts.

 

[JR]

I don't throw max weight for distance drivers but saying you can't see a need for max weight plastics means you are closing your eyes, most every pro I know throws predominately max weight I wish they all new as much as you; I am sure their ratings would instantly fly past the 1040 barrier or at least jump by 20 points. People throw at different speeds at different angles with varying degrees of beneficial results, max weight is fine in most discs for golfers with a few years under their belts.

The situation is more complex than that. I haven't done a shoot out in a headwind with discs of the same mold, plastic and condition in different weights with representative molds. A shoot out between a new DX Leopard 166 vs a new Star Leopard 148 indicated that in no wind conditions the 148 loses momentum due to drag sooner and falls consistently shorter than the grippier 166 disc. How the different plastic and contact with air changes the equation I don't know. In theory the DX 166 should stay horizontal before the fade longer because the RPM can be lower thanks to more skin friction due to the grippier plastic and maybe gyroscopics play a part with that mold too.

Gyroscopics between molds give different results because there a lit of different weight distributions between molds wing vs flight plate.

Momentum probably plays a bigger part in cutting through headwinds than in calm conditions. So higher weights are better for headwind distance not only because of HSS requiring more initial hyzer angle out of the lighter disc. Even though the lighter disc will leave the hand at higher speeds all else being equal, except I don't know how RPM changes with different arm speeds for different persons and how large the variance is, the steeper hyzer takes the disc higher burning speed. That's because a disc rises as long as it is hyzered if the throw flips from hyzer to flat or beyond.

My non scientific observations of weight in calm conditions in some examples is that a light Leopard is shorter than a 166. I really need to test 166 DX Leo vs my 175 Champ too. My 150 Star Teebird without flashing in new condition is longer than my new 166 DX TB because I lack the snap required to keep the new 166 from fading. I also lack power and the ability to throw high enough with the front lower than the rear for the lessened glide of the 166 with fade to keep it from hitting the ground too early. I need to throw the 150 TB on a low line drive for best distance or a mild s-curve. Because the 166 fades too early and too much it needs more of a s-curve and higher line for which I don't have the power. On low line drives the 166 falls even shorter. Different lines and no matter the line my 150 TB outdistances my 166 clearly.

I have a beat to fadeless but a bit flippy 175 DX TB too. No way it'll flex back from an anny so it won't fare with s-curves because it won't flex back enough. Throwing low line drives won't work because it falls too quickly even without a fade staying horizontal all the way. Throwing higher helps but it still loses height too fast for great D.

My longest throw after hurting my ankle with the Star 150 TB is about 360' and IIRC the new DX 166 is about 325', fadeless 175 DX goes out to 300' which is around the same I get with new Champ 175 TB that is close to new DX 175. On average I get even a larger separation between good and bad throws and average throws between the weights. The lighter ones don't loose as much D as the heavier ones with poor throws. I don't have the form or the power to get everything out of new heavy TBs in any plastic.

Momentum, gyroscopics, wind direction and severity, speed vs spin generation, nose down angle, apex height and flight lines all influence which disc in which weight flies farthest for each player. Depending on the conditions. Wind and altitude... There's something to ponder... That was only two molds :-D

I see a lot of differences between a 166 Star Wraith broken in early run vs 170 Champ no idea how old it is vs early pro 175 beat to roller tuned back to new vs brand new Star 12x with flashing on. 175 * 12x is too much for me on calm days unless I throw slight anny for golfable s-curves or go for non max D straight then left shot with a flat release. Each with low apex. I need to throw the 166 * high with considerable hyzer to flip to anny for max D line s-curve.

 

[JR]

To return to the question of the original poster an Orc with a high dome is much more controllable and forgiving disc that can be used on more lines than a max weight Wraith for most players.

You need a gun of an arm to be able to throw the Wraith on more lines and they need to be longer shots like 420'+. Speculation on my part as I've not broken 400' in air with a Wraith only with a skip. Based on that 400' for a Wraith is too short for more than three golfable flight lines. Mild s-curve, hyzer and straight then left. Not talking about trick shots here now.

Wraith requires more arm speed, snap, better nose down throwing ability and is more susceptible to the wind but goes farther. Which means that the Wraith ain't as accurate and is more suited to open long holes where the extra 15-20' of distance may give you a birdie instead of a par sometimes and bogey too. I'd say that for most shots Orc should suffice for most and before graduating to the Wraith one Should really be throwing a Champ Starfire. Star Starfire is for headwinds as it's to overstable for max D for mortals. With flashing at least. C Starfire is about 40 % of the way from an Orc towards a Wraith. With the controllability being almost as good as an Orc and 8-10' of more D than an Orc. So more D than the percentage I gave but also more Orc like in forgiveness and controllability. Assuming no flashing for Orc, Wraith and Starfire.

Star 12x 175 Wraith with flashing ain't flippy in mild head winds. Haven't encountered heavier winds yet because I just got it a couple of days ago. I assume it will be straighter and possibly longer yet not flippy in moderate headwinds than on calm days.

 

[black udder]

I don't throw max weight for distance drivers but saying you can't see a need for max weight plastics means you are closing your eyes, most every pro I know throws predominately max weight I wish they all new as much as you; I am sure their ratings would instantly fly past the 1040 barrier or at least jump by 20 points. People throw at different speeds at different angles with varying degrees of beneficial results, max weight is fine in most discs for golfers with a few years under their belts.

Man, just read what I wrote. I said unless you're throwing over 450' *I* don't see a need for max weight drivers. I use some heavy midranges and putters, but I'm not throwing that far, so drivers in the 16x range behave more to their design than a max weight driver. Once you get more distance, then the additional weight helps them perform to their designed flight patterns. I know some people also like to kick up the weight to add overstability.

A huge reason that people throw max weight is because that's the majority of what's available. Many, many people want and prefer to throw lighter weight discs. My only point was that weight does make a difference in the flight characteristics of a disc and if you don't have the power to throw a heavy disc, you can back off on the weight and see if a lighter disc works better.

Also, I'd hazard a guess that most of the pros you know can throw a max weight disc properly as well (meaning they know what to look for and adjust disc/weight appropriately to get desired results).

EDIT: a quote from another thread: "its great, exactly what ive been looking for, however it hasnt been getting as much air time as the 168 u sent. That disc opened my eyes to how great lighter weights can be. Ive thrown max weight since day 1 10 yrs ago and was always pig headed about lighter weights being for "girls". man was i WRONG!"

 

[jgillia]

I don't throw max weight for distance drivers but saying you can't see a need for max weight plastics means you are closing your eyes, most every pro I know throws predominately max weight I wish they all new as much as you; I am sure their ratings would instantly fly past the 1040 barrier or at least jump by 20 points. People throw at different speeds at different angles with varying degrees of beneficial results, max weight is fine in most discs for golfers with a few years under their belts.

Man, just read what I wrote. I said unless you're throwing over 450' *I* don't see a need for max weight drivers. I use some heavy midranges and putters, but I'm not throwing that far, so drivers in the 16x range behave more to their design than a max weight driver. Once you get more distance, then the additional weight helps them perform to their designed flight patterns. I know some people also like to kick up the weight to add overstability.

A huge reason that people throw max weight is because that's the majority of what's available. Many, many people want and prefer to throw lighter weight discs. My only point was that weight does make a difference in the flight characteristics of a disc and if you don't have the power to throw a heavy disc, you can back off on the weight and see if a lighter disc works better.

Also, I'd hazard a guess that most of the pros you know can throw a max weight disc properly as well (meaning they know what to look for and adjust disc/weight appropriately to get desired results).

EDIT: a quote from another thread: "its great, exactly what ive been looking for, however it hasnt been getting as much air time as the 168 u sent. That disc opened my eyes to how great lighter weights can be. Ive thrown max weight since day 1 10 yrs ago and was always pig headed about lighter weights being for "girls". man was i WRONG!"

HAHA i got quoted.....but it is very true...weights make all the difference in the world

 

[frennis524]

I typically throw my Orc 400' and have gotten it to 430' 20ft high. I hyzer flip it from 10 degrees and it has a tight s curve.

 

[twmccoy1]

I've actually found the champ wraith to be a little flippy in all weights. In fact, a max weight champ orc and wraith will probably have similar stability.

I prefer the star wraith to the champ, it seems more stable and more consistent from disc to disc.

If you're having success with the orc I'd go ahead and keep it. You won't see a huge distance increase with a wraith.

 

[TeeRexJJ]

i used to have both but now only the orc gos in the bag. i never had a problem with the wriath and honestly have no idea why i don't throw it anymore. i'm sure that helps a lot lol

 

[Bradley Walker]

If I did not thow the Wraith, I would throw the Orc or ESP Flash. Domey Orcs are great.