Playing Surface and Relief Question

[jenb]

A player's disc landed on a pile of loose branches that were large. The player wanted to play the disc as the marker and either stand on the pile or stand by the pile and stick a foot up on the pile as the forwardmost support point. I told her that the branches were not playing surface, and she had to mark it on the ground under the branches and move the brnaches or take relief if she could not move them. With a little effort, we were able to move the branches.

But there are also big piles of wood chips on courses that obviously are not supposed to be moved, and players routinely stand on them to throw. What should we do in that case? Is it playing surface? If not, are we really supposed to try and move it before taking relief?

A. After each throw, the thrown disc must be left where it came to rest until the lie is established by the placing of a marker. This can be done by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface between the hole and the disc, directly in line with the hole, on the line of play, touching the thrown disc. A player may instead choose, without touching or repositioning the thrown disc, to use the thrown disc as the marker. The marker may not be moved until the throw is released. A marker inadvertently moved prior to the throw shall be returned to its correct location.

B. A player is only required to mark the lie with a mini marker disc when repositioning the lie under the rules. This includes the following rules: out-of-bounds, disc above or below the playing surface, lost disc, optional rethrow, relocated for relief, interference, or repositioning the lie within 1 meter of the out-of-bounds line.

A. When the disc is released, a player must:
(1) Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the playing surface on the line of play and within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc (except as specified in 803.04 E); and,

B. Casual Obstacles to a Stance: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles that are in the stance or run-up area: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, people, or any item or area specifically designated by the director before the round. The player must first attempt to remove the obstacle. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the hole, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is announced by the director).

 

[Plankeye]

If the loose branches were large enough and sturdy then I could argue that it is a playing surface.

Hopefully this is something that local players try to help keep off of the course through periodic maitenance. A couple weeks ago after a bad storm several trees and branches fell and littered the course and in one case a tree fell across a fairway on the longest hole and it landed in the spot that most people land on their drives. While I and the group I was playing with played the round, we would take those loose branches and toss them into the woods to at least keep the fairways clean. We took the tree that fell across the fairway and moved it to the edge of the fairway.

 

[jenb]

So, if people can stand on it and take a stance, it can be playing surface, even if it is detached from the ground? Even if it is defined in the rules as an obstacle?

Playing Surface: A surface, generally the ground, which is capable of supporting the player and from which a stance may reasonably be taken. In cases where it is unclear whether a surface is the playing surface, the decision shall be made by the tournament director or a course official.

B. Casual Obstacles to a Stance: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles that are in the stance or run-up area: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, people, or any item or area specifically designated by the director before the round. The player must first attempt to remove the obstacle. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the hole, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is announced by the director).

 

[Plankeye]

That is why i said if it was able to support the player then it could be argued that it is a playing surface.

 

[MoonT4]

I tend to agree with Plankeye, as if the branch could support the player, why not allow for the shot? I mean, there is a diffence between following the rules and being a rules natzi. Taking things like playing surface into consideration, the rule states;

B. A player is only required to mark the lie with a mini marker disc when repositioning the lie under the rules. This includes the following rules: out-of-bounds, disc above or below the playing surface

I would take this to mean, Above=in a tree Below=under a bridge. Now, if the branch or in this case it sounds as if it could have been a log, was moved then how is this not improving the lye? If player didn't want to move the object and took relief as in the rule, would you have attempted to give said player a penatly?

I myself would have just played it from it original lye and marked it with a question mark and asked the TD upon completing the round. If it was a casual round, then why be a rules natzi about it?

 

[Plankeye]

And the casual obstacle rule states the rule "may" get relief.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Although it's not stated this way, a playing surface is essentially a surface suitable for humans to walk on. Brush piles would typically not be playing surfaces but the rule allows you to take relief behind it with no penalty. So no problem. Single downed branches and logs can typically be walked on or climbed over depending on size if you're just walking thru the woods. So the top of these could be considered a playing surface if the player chooses. But the rules also allow them to be moved or a stance taken under/behind them if the player prefers or can't move them.

 

[atl scott]

This brings up something that happened to me a while back. There is a hole on a tightly wooded course that has small logs (6" across or so) lining the fairway. One of them was in my stance (behind my lie as was the rule then) and I decided to move it a couple feet out of my way. I actually had to move it forward (into the fairway) as I was on the edge and trees were blocking me from moving it backwards.

After I threw I moved the log back to where it was in line with the others (ugh it was heavy). I don't see anywhere in the rules that accounts for doing this but I thought it was common sense and no one in my group objected. Opinions?

 

[Cgkdisc]

In this case since the log had become part of the course versus a casual obstacle, you could not move it but could take solid object relief and mark behind it. For example, if you land just in front of a movable trash can, you can't move it but can mark behind it if you can't take a stance because your mini is too close in front of it.

 

[atl scott]

Hmmm, the problem wasn't that I couldn't take a stance but that I was more comfortable with the log outta the way. I'm not sure at what point a log stops being a log. It still seems identifiable as no longer attached. Is your opinion still based on the last part of the casual obstacle rule?

 

[Mr. America]

Hmmm, the problem wasn't that I couldn't take a stance but that I was more comfortable with the log outta the way. I'm not sure at what point a log stops being a log. It still seems identifiable as no longer attached. Is your opinion still based on the last part of the casual obstacle rule?

Your log was lining the fairway, meaning intentionally placed there, IE now part of the course. Not a casual obstacle.