power pocket help

[horsethief]

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone would be kind enough to make a detailed post, or youtube video on the "power pocket." I keep going through days where I feel the power pocket and then lose it. On days when I feel it, it feels like I'm not even trying throw "hard" but instead just trying to load as much tension as possible in the pocket. Effortless is the best way to describe it -- almost walking through my x-step, relaxed, glide in, load up the pocket, then slowly begin to accelerate as it starts unloading, with a tiny bit of oomph at the end (I don't think my arm ever actually reaches max speed on these days since i'm just kind of "cruising" through things, yet I can hit 450'+ line drives quite easily on these days).

I was hoping to change weeks of field practice tweaking things to find this feeling, into hours (with some insight from others). I think part of the problem is not trusting myself to relax and slow down -- i know when I have the feeling how easy everything seems, yet when I try to achieve it the next time out, it seems like it can't be as easy as I remember.

Thanks in advance!

 

[JR]

I have not heard a detailed enough explanation to be able to say what Blake means exactly by the power pocket. A roundabout way to your goal could be the pivot hop step that people often say forces good timing with little effort. I do get good snap with it even with way less practice than with the x step so there is defo something there.

 

[sidewinder22]

To me getting into the power pocket has to do with the body being out of momentums way.

 

[horsethief]

I will try to concentrate on that next time I'm able to get to a field and see if that helps. The last time I had the feeling (Monday) I had a very noticeable shoulder pause and then it just kind of happens naturally. On days when i'm not feeling it, even If i try to pause my shoulders it just doesn't seem to happen (maybe my pace is too fast) but maybe i'm just getting in the way like you said. I'll report back with my findings!

 

[scoopa]

My current understanding is you are in the power pocket when the disc enters the right side of the body. From the right pec forward is the "pocket". Relaxed is right. You glide into the pocket and accelerate out of it.

Right about in this video Brad shows it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LffYBb1vQjQ#t=269

 

[horsethief]

I will have to watch the video when I get home from work.

My problem is that there is a big difference between having the disc enter the right side of the body (these are the bad/normal days) and a separate feeling of compressing a spring as you enter the right side of the body (these are the good days). On the good days, right around my right pec you can start to feel tension building up (the muscles on the top of your forearm start stretching) and if I keep pushing the disc further into the pocket, the tension gets stronger and stronger -- then I just you just kind of release all the tension that was built up and discs go flying like a rocket out of your hand. On the bad days, I can move the disc to, what feels like the same position, but there is no tension, like a catapult with a broken spring.

Thanks for posting the video, maybe it will give me some insights when i'm able to watch it

 

[horsethief]

I had a chance to watch Brad's video, it seems to cover bringing the head around (what you want to do when you're unloading from the power pocket). I didn't really see anything about the power pocket and loading it up :/

 

[scoopa]

Loading comes from staying on the other side of the disc for as long as possible while resisting the bending of the wrist.

In other words getting the disc as deep into the pocket as you can.

Getting into the pocket with none of the tension could you being too loose. For me cocking the wrist in the down position(for nose down) gives enough resistance. It is however heavily dependent on your own strength.

You could also be opening your shoulder too soon. The tension won't build at the right time if you aren't moving forward for long enough. It will still happen just much later and off-line(grip-lock).

 

[JR]

Right pec drill doesn't have any momentum or going too fast into the power pocket so it is a good way to test which wrist tension timing and strength works the best for you.

I keep hearing not to cock the wrist back and resisting the bending but i've filmed a 140 meter thrower toss at about 120 KPH with 30 revolutions per second last winter in indoor practice with a high speed camera with cocked back wrist (Finnish doubles champion this year)and at Finnish championships a 201 meter thrower (2nd at Big D8 and Finnish championships this year including a 1054 rated round) definitely cocks his wrist back ad spins the disc with active wrist extension. He said that the difference between otherwise similar throws but low spin vs high spin can be 66'-100' in distance. I assume that is at his power so not so much for the rest of us.

If you check out Youtube for Finnish Open 2013 there is a shot somewhere there filmed from the side and high showing the 201 meter thrower and Simon Lizotte pounding out way farther and way faster than others. The difference in speed is obvious and large to the other guys who were tossing 400' and over. So YMMV and active wrist extension has something to it too. I suggest trying loose and tense wrist and combining both with straight wrist and cocked back wrist with different tensions to see what works best for now and regularly rechecking because muscle power increases can change things. The 201 meter thrower is pretty athletic. You can hyper spin the disc with straight wrist to active extension right of neutral too as Marty Peters showed in Discraft video More distance now on Youtube.

 

[horsethief]

by "cocked back" do you mean cocked closed, or cocked open?

 

[JR]

Juho Parviainen that 201 meter thrower bent his wrist almost 90 degrees with right hand backhand throws needing spin. Like Omega drives such as in this video he has a yellow t shirt and a black cap. The wrist bends left of straight (neutral) for example at 1:28. That round rated 1054 on the second day of Finnish championships left him in the lead.

 

[noah1]

What is the 'pivot hop step' mentioned earlier?

 

[scoopa]

Dave goes over it here in this clinic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sxw8ix0CYs

 

[horsethief]

Just posting back for a progress report. I haven't had much time to go to a field and experiment, but here's what I have to report:

1) day 1 (Sunday): must have thrown 500+ throws, tried many different things but still couldn't really get into the power pocket like I do on my good days, nothing eventful to report. I did however take some quick videos and review them at the end of the day. I noticed my plant foot was at an angle around 60 degrees rather than >= 90. I figured it was forcing my hips to open faster than they should.
2) day 2 (last night): practiced focusing on my plant foot making sure it was at least 90 degrees, but still couldn't really get into the power pocket like remember on my "good" days. I did however experiment with stiffening my wrist. I noticed if i started stiffening it around my left shoulder I could see some results (threw a few wizards out between 280' - 330') and one roc out to ~380' -- but still didn't feel that tension building phase like I have on my good days.

I'll keep reporting back, hopefully one of my "experiments" will let me pinpoint what i'm doing so I can have my "good" days more than once every few weeks!

 

[JR]

380' Roc ain't bad i think that should yield 440'-450' at least with warp speeders. Olympic javelin winner Andreas Thorkildsen said in an interview that he missed the acceleration point and the throw felt effortless when he thought he didn't put enough power into the throw. And he won some event with that longest throw so he said maybe he should move the acceleration point later. There is of course difference between not feeling you are making an effort and feeling the muscles work stiffening in the plyometric loading of the forearm msucles. In Finnish doubles championships 2013 Nils Iso-markku said: "That was a beautiful throw i did nothing and it went there". After throwing throwing far.

 

[horsethief]

Reporting in after a field session this evening. I was experimenting with NOT stiffening my wrist but really focusing on bringing the head around. I threw a lot of putters around 310' - 320'. Not as far as I was when I was stiffening my wrist, but much more consistent. I'm going to experiment with this for a little while and see what happens. I still have yet to feel that "loading" phase when I push the disc deep into the power pocket again, I wish i could have had some video from that day.

 

[JR]

Eventually everyone that wants to compare which method works the best for them at that time will need to perform loose wrist, fairly stiff wrist (fully locked wrist does not work and is counter productive by 50') and different timings one after another with the same disc in the same session to see which gives the longest throws. IT may be a good thing that you do not notice the loading of the arm muscles from concentrating on more important things like timing and proper movement paths. See the more you stiffen up the slower and shorter you throw but get sensations from the arm. Getting too easy feedback from the muscles working often means you're gritting your teeth, bulging the neck veins and having so stiff arm muscles that you lose 20' or more feet from the internal resistance of the arm muscles that are too stiff too early. Feeling the muscles work is easier to notice once you get that lightbulb moment of oh that's how it works. It is much easier to notice something that you've realized before than finding that sensation for the first time. In a good throw the arm is so mellow so long that it does not feel like anything until the right pec position.

So far my observation of my throwing has been that until the right pec i don't feel the arm at all and i throw farther if the brains sends out the command move quickly not grip strongly and use the muscles powerfully as if in lifting heavy weights. The difference is on average at least 15' probably 20'. In the loose to the right pec quick arm movement mode i can feel the arm muscles tense up like wires much harder but with the muscles feeling thinner and tighter (possibly from more plyometric stretching of the muscles to physically longer thanks to not having so much resistance to the stretching). The muscles do a lot of work in the quick movement command mode but the feeling and probably the diameter of the muscles are different to strong command mode. In the quick mode you get a free lunch because you do not need to guide the muscles you only need to say quick. The body knows how to perform that from all your life practicing how to move quickly. That way your brain processing power is saved for something more useful. Like remaining blank and allowing automation to work fully or timing things right etc.