Sail effect and stability in winds

[Spike1]

I've been thinking, and I might get long now. Perhaps someone can give me their thoughts on sail effect vs stability in winds. Generally, I think the sail effect is under-estimated when talking about discs that are good or bad in winds (also, I don't see sail effect as same as "glide", they are sometimes mixed up). People exclusively talk about the importance of stability.

Overstable putters are often marketed as being good in winds, but that's not always true. At low speed and in windy conditions, the sail effect is a bigger danger than the risk of turning over the disc or failing to make it fade hard to the ground if you miss the basket. Example: IMO the XD is a decent wind putter, but not as good off tee (in headwinds). For Piranha it's the other way around – it can take some headwinds at drives but its high profile makes it respond too much to gusts of wind when putting.

Comparing the wind sensitivity of Drone vs Gator shows an example where the sail effect does affect the two discs in different ways, but isn't "valued" as highly as stability. Drone is usually described as a disc that is super in winds, and stability-wise it is, but its larger diameter can mean trouble if it the wind takes it. It can really go long sideways if you throw it too high. Gator on the other hand is slightly less stable, but doesn't get as affected by the wind if thrown badly. It will go down quicker in side winds.

IMO a typical good disc for those difficult days when the wind goes back and forth beyond your control would be a h.s-stable and fairly l.s-stable disc with an aerodynamic slim shape and a small diameter (every millimeter adds to the sail effect). It really doesn't have to be one of those hard fading discs, as long as the high speed stability is good enough. Many seem to pick the disc with the highest hss and the highest lss when making high hyzers in winds, but don't seem to bother about the sail effect. An XXX is bigger than a Firebird (at least mine was, don't know about the actual measures) which could be one reason why I found it more willing to travel sideways during its fade in side winds.

Do you agree that sail effect is an important factor on windy days? …or do you have any other thoughts or objections to this?

 

[DaRoc]

what you talking about willis? i never heard anybody talk about sail effect for discs. it is still glide in my eyes. when throwing in a heady i always throw more stable but it depends on distance. if it s around 250 i will still throw my wizard or ridge no matter what. for putting i never change change cause of winds.

the sail effet you talk about can be culprit of nose up, exposing the bottom of the disc in l to r winds or r to l. it is matter of learning play the wind so your disc glides with it or against it. dont let it sail away.

just my opinion.

 

[Spike1]

It's not the same at all...

"Glide" is the ability to stay in the air. It's the aerodynamics, spin and speed of the disc that create the glide. You don't need wind to have glide, but you do need air, which creates wind resistance.

"Sail effect" is when the wind actively pushes the disc to move sideways (or even backwards if you throw really high in headwinds). There is sail effect as soon as there is wind, which means that a disc's shape is important when it's windy.

 

[DaRoc]

i hear what you are saying but i dont agree. we agree to to disagree wind effects the way the glide of my discs. it is all about technique and disc selection so you dont have sail effect. a brand new roc should go where you want in a 15mph heady as would a gator. yah understable discs dont fair well in wind but satble to overstable discs do fine with clean form.just saying that form and knowing your discs out weighs disc shape and the wind.

Plus XDs suck now that they retooled them. wow are they domey and understable. booo on innova. way to screw up a great disc.

 

[Spike1]

Actually, I don't disagree with you at all when it comes to the importance of learning to control your discs, also in winds. But that goes for everything that affects the disc in winds; stability, weight, shape, size, etc (the last two is much related to what I mean with "sail effect").

 

[readysetstab]

i know what you mean about the sail effect, but i also agree with DaPats. its really pointless to worry about sail effect if you play the wind correctly. if you don't let the under side of your disc become exposed to the wind, you should have no problems. keep the same discs in your bag and learn to throw with the top of your disc tilted toward the wind. it will be knocked down quicker, but its easy to adjust. don't over-think it.

also, there's a tip that i picked up from Ken "the tank" Franks. "its amazing what a disc can do against the wind if you throw it flat." this was just after he parked one of the hardest holes on the course we were playing against a headwind, uphill, with a pond about 20ft right of the basket. what he meant is to get the disc flipped to flat and it will fight the wind. in other words, know your discs and know how much wind they can handle so they don't get turned or exposed. that's mostly for playing headwind though. for crosswinds, just keep the belly turned away from the wind.

 

[Spike1]

Good tip.

I see it like this: You can compensate anything that affects the flight, for example you can throw an understable disc in headwinds if you practice. You can putt with a Rattler in winds if you practice on doing that. So I wasn't saying that sail effect is something that you shouldn't have to learn to master. Because you do.

But to take one example, I see people hyzer bombing with overstable discs in sidewinds (sometimes there is only one choice for a shot), thinking that stability is going to do it for them, and then get surprised about how far it went to the side (because that particular disc is easily taken by the wind above the tree tops). I think it is just as important to choose a disc that is not affected much by winds (above the trees it's the sail effect that matters most on windy days, not stability). See the Gator vs Drone comparison. Some overstable discs are only wind fighters when driving hard and straight, not high. Drone is not a wind fighter high up in the air, it's a sail. Gator is better at that. I wouldn't be surprised if a disc like Champion Spider would be better in winds for high throws than a more overstable disc, like Roc (because Roc is larger).

Same goes for putting: Some discs are good in winds, but it's not always the overstable ones.

But of course, I see your points and agree with many of them!

Also, I'm tryin my theories here. I havent made a scientific analysis ...most of this is based om my own experiences (except the Spider-Roc thing)

 

[peteg]

i am often more wary of the sail effect than most. It seems like most righties think they should throw a hyzer if there is a right to left wind, because the wind will "help" them. I generally try to do the opposite. rather than giving the underside of my disc to the wind and guessing how far it's going to get pushed, i would rather throw a hyzer into the wind and let the wind push it down from above. This lets you saw off your hyzers a bit and still get less lateral movement overall.

 

[discspeed]

What I see being discussed here is aerodynamics particularly wind resistance. It definitely exists and makes some discs fly much different in a little wind than in calm conditions.

How far discs can potentially "sail" off line is a function of their profile, speed, and glide characteristics. Its true that you can learn to compensate for any disc, but in golf it's about %'s, and some discs are definitely better with respect to wind resistance than others. So this is definitely a pertinent discussion and something I've spent a lot of time thinking about over the years.

For example in all my disc testing and trials I have often find mids that I "like" better than the Buzzz in the field on a calm day. Nice floaty discs like Comets, QMS's, or even many versions of the Roc seem to fly smoother with less effort and drop down on the target with more accuracy and forgiveness than my Buzzz does. Invariably when I have put these in my bag and take them to the course however, I find that the same characteristics that I enjoyed in calm conditions become a liability in ANY wind. Not necessarily affected big time, but enough to seriously reduce my precision. The Buzzz is flat and low profile for a mid, therefore it CUTS the wind much better than the others I mentioned. This is basically the rationale behind my assertion that the Buzzz is much better in the wind than a Roc. The high profile means that it's constantly getting pushed around by wind from any direction. So perhaps the stability of a Roc is more consistent across moderate wind conditions, but every thing else about the flight (height, distance, aim) is more affected by wind.

 

[masterbeato]

considering that the disc is thrown clean, go by the discs speed in which it turns over compared to the winds speed.

lets say a certain disc needs to be thrown at 70mph to turn over, but if there is a 20mph headwind, than the disc only needs to be thrown at 50mph to turn over. tailwinds are the opposite.

 

[Spike1]

considering that the disc is thrown clean, go by the discs speed in which it turns over compared to the winds speed.

lets say a certain disc needs to be thrown at 70mph to turn over, but if there is a 20mph headwind, than the disc only needs to be thrown at 50mph to turn over. tailwinds are the opposite.

If we talk about absolute straight headwind or tailwind, then yes. It would be like making the disc fly in a wind tunnel and the speed could be adjusted according to the headwind or tailwind. But in practice, it's extremely rare that winds are that easily calculated. Outdoors, winds will be different at the moment you release the disc than it is just before landing, and it can push the disc upwards and downwards during the flight.

The sail effect is more about how well the disc responds to wind in general (side winds, random winds, etc), than it is a power/stability issue.

 

[Spike1]

What I see being discussed here is aerodynamics particularly wind resistance. It definitely exists and makes some discs fly much different in a little wind than in calm conditions.

How far discs can potentially "sail" off line is a function of their profile, speed, and glide characteristics. Its true that you can learn to compensate for any disc, but in golf it's about %'s, and some discs are definitely better with respect to wind resistance than others. So this is definitely a pertinent discussion and something I've spent a lot of time thinking about over the years.

For example in all my disc testing and trials I have often find mids that I "like" better than the Buzzz in the field on a calm day. Nice floaty discs like Comets, QMS's, or even many versions of the Roc seem to fly smoother with less effort and drop down on the target with more accuracy and forgiveness than my Buzzz does. Invariably when I have put these in my bag and take them to the course however, I find that the same characteristics that I enjoyed in calm conditions become a liability in ANY wind. Not necessarily affected big time, but enough to seriously reduce my precision. The Buzzz is flat and low profile for a mid, therefore it CUTS the wind much better than the others I mentioned. This is basically the rationale behind my assertion that the Buzzz is much better in the wind than a Roc. The high profile means that it's constantly getting pushed around by wind from any direction. So perhaps the stability of a Roc is more consistent across moderate wind conditions, but every thing else about the flight (height, distance, aim) is more affected by wind.

Agreed, and I'm with you totally about the Roc / Buzzz thing too.

 

[masterbeato]

considering that the disc is thrown clean, go by the discs speed in which it turns over compared to the winds speed.

lets say a certain disc needs to be thrown at 70mph to turn over, but if there is a 20mph headwind, than the disc only needs to be thrown at 50mph to turn over. tailwinds are the opposite.

If we talk about absolute straight headwind or tailwind, then yes. It would be like making the disc fly in a wind tunnel and the speed could be adjusted according to the headwind or tailwind. But in practice, it's extremely rare that winds are that easily calculated. Outdoors, winds will be different at the moment you release the disc than it is just before landing, and it can push the disc upwards and downwards during the flight.

The sail effect is more about how well the disc responds to wind in general (side winds, random winds, etc), than it is a power/stability issue.

then im wrong

 

[Spike1]

i am often more wary of the sail effect than most. It seems like most righties think they should throw a hyzer if there is a right to left wind, because the wind will "help" them.(...)

Most of the time I don't want to be helped by side winds. When there's no wind and I want to go round something in a left curve and need the curve to be long and smooth, I might pick a Comet and make a slight hyzer. It will glide in a nice and long extended curve without going down too soon. But if there is a right to left wind I wouldn't like to be helped too much by it. Discs like Comet (both glidey and very responsive to sail effect) will respond very much to that and it will be difficult to control. I would then throw something that doesn't become as much of a sail.

A very common opinion seems to be that overstable discs will reduce the sail effect, but I'm not so sure about that since an overstable disc will start fading sooner and expose more of its surface to the wind during a longer period (in %) of its flight. They might be less glidey, which can be good in winds, but they will still be more or less responsive to the sail effect, depending on how they are shaped.