Settle this debate about FH snap for me

[Pwingles]

Forehand throws that go over 350 specifically are the throw in question. I believe to get the snap you need to go over 350 consistently FH the technique and snap have to be pretty decent. I can throw FH 300+ with no approach. My friend struggles with 300 with any approach.

I tell him his snap needs to be better, and that snap comes from the wrist being a bit stiffer and the flex from the resistance of the wrist being stiffer will help his snap.

Different guy chimes in, says, no, the only thing that will help him is the flicking motion.

I try to tell him he is correct to a certain point, you can only flick so far (taking into account the person in questions usual distance) and at some point your wrist flick isnt going to be enough.

He says thats the ONLY way to manufacture snap with a FH throw.

IMO, the throw he is describing is something in between flicking an ultimate disc and forcing a disc down the fairway with your wrist. And more often then not, will cause wrist roll and an unwanted FH roller.

Am i incorrect to think that even though they are different techniques (BH and FH) the snap is still produced in a similar manner?

TLR

where does FH snap come from? a flicking motion (indicating a limper wrist for the throw)
or a stiffer wrist at the hit?

 

[scoopa]

where does FH snap come from? a flicking motion (indicating a limper wrist for the throw)
or a stiffer wrist at the hit?

My wrist still "flicks" in a hard fh throw. I try to stay loose for the first part of it. Even though my wrist stiffens at the hit the increased arm speed still bends it back and slings it forward.

I didn't even notice until I saw a video of me throwing a hard fh. So, I'd say you are both right!

The image is fuzzy, but you can still see my wrist is bent back and about to be slung forward. And this is a harder\longer throw.

 

[Pwingles]

Thats what i was trying to clear up, hes right to a point, but what he was describing is your "pull" or elbow coming forward, and the wrist movement as 2 conscious movements. Not the result of momentum and your arms movement. Less of a spring loaded reaction, more of an action being triggered by your arm coming forward to a certain point.

edit* also your wrist is bent because its not stiff, i wasnt trying to describe a completely rigid wrist, but not a floppy wrist either. Your wrist should bend, but there should be resistance, and that would cause a springing action, amirite?

 

[Timko]

It's a rotation around the rim, just like a backhand. Hold a disc sidearm with your index pointing where your eyes are looking. Now push your index finger your wrist so your finger now points at your chest. That's the snap.

 

[JHern]

The wrist should be like a spring. A stiff spring bends a little. A loose spring bends a lot. Which you use doesn't matter, so long as it springs back and contributes to the flicking motion going into the release.

If it is coiled and then you release the tension, that's not good, since you lose that energy. So loose or firm, you should never become looser as the arm moves forward, if anything, it should become tighter and more firm.

 

[Timko]

I think I get a better "feel" for the forehand. Like JHern said, it's best to have a loose spring. My wrist is very loose, but my fingers give me a lot of extension, both backward and forward.

 

[Slowhand]

I can get a RHFH flat straight golfline out to 380 with no wind. A few things I feel helped me get there:
1. More shoulder rotation in reach back.
2. Less focus on keeping elbow fixed.
3. As I push forward from the ground, my shoulder turns forward, elbow pulls through, wrist and fingers spring forward.
I feel like the overall process is more of a pushing motion than flicking motion.

 

[Widdershins]

Forehand or backhand, power is a function of wrist snap and arm speed, (so long as your grip and form don't hold you back). Good grip and good basic form are common among experienced players so they are not the big variables.

Arm speed is dependent on fast twitch muscles. Snap is the great mystery, the secret ingredient which allows some players to generate great power even without great arm speed.

Great snap is easy to gauge. We all know who has it and who doesn't. Some players can snap a putt on a laser beam from 100 feet or more. In putting position, there is little body involved in the shot, just like there is limited arm motion. A long putt (not a throw, just a putt) is dependent on wrist snap.

Due to body mechanics, forehand snap is easier to generate than backhand snap for most players. So if you find yourself kneeling in a bush with little room to swing your arm, it is easier to snap it 200 feet forehand than backhand. (For many players it may be much harder to control a forehand but that is a different issue from power).

So what gives forehand power? Snap and arm speed with some grip and form mixed in.

 

[DiscGolfTeeSigns.com]

Thanks for joining the site, Mark!

 

[JR]

Thanks for joining the site, Mark!

Absolutely!!! Thanks for the Discraft videos Mark and persuading me to try the Rattler. What a lovely disc only if it were available in a premium plastic.

 

[JHern]

Yes, great to see you here Mark. This forum is great, lots of discussion about getting into the nitty-gritty details of throwing and flight mechanics, and it is fun! Lots of interesting points of view as well.

What amazes me about the similarities between good forehand and backhand is that the arm effort going into the throw should increase with time. If you're pouring all your arm power into it from the very start of the throw, it is usually an awful throw, and also hard to control the orientation. The key always seems to be using your body's forward momentum and weight shift onto the plant foot to get the disc started forward and going through part of the whip motion, and then as the arm comes around then you pour on the muscle and blast through the release.

Like Mark was saying, with very limited arm motion you can get a 200 ft forehand throw. Best practice is by playing catch with a putter...good wrist snap is needed to keep the disc from flipping. Then adding distance is not about throwing with more arm strength over a longer arm motion, per se, but by doing the exact same thing as the short throw, but just shifting your weight forward faster and getting more momentum coming into the start of that forced short motion. Then you can hit it harder and the disc will fly further without having to blow out your arm (and safer for the elbow, in particular).

 

[ReDisculous]

The wrist should be like a spring. A stiff spring bends a little. A loose spring bends a lot.

The difference between a stiff spring and a loose spring is the potential energy.

If you take a spring scale that the maximum measuerment is 10 lbs, and one that maxes out at 50 lbs, then stretch them as far as they will go, which will snap back with more force?

Of course tightening your wrist requires more arm speed but I'm pretty certain that the stiffer wrist will have more potential energy, you just need enough speed/acceleration for it to still bend. This is one of the things I took away from Brad Walker's snap thread, when he was talking about resiting the wrist bendng back. I'm pretty sure the mechanics are the same for bh or fh, just reversed.

Anyways, I think the answer is, the wrist should be as stiff as you can make it, and still have it bend.

 

[JHern]

The difference between a stiff spring and a loose spring is the potential energy.

I disagree on principle. The potential energy E of a spring is E=1/2*k*x*x, where k is the spring constant and x is the amount of strain/compression in the spring. Whether loose or firm is a question of which value of k applies to the situation. A loose spring is just a lower value of k, which can be compensated by a slightly higher value of x. According to this relation, decreasing k by four times can be accommodated by increasing x by two times. So a 4X weaker spring stores the same potential energy with 2X the recoil.

If you take a spring scale that the maximum measuerment is 10 lbs, and one that maxes out at 50 lbs, then stretch them as far as they will go, which will snap back with more force?

Maximum stretch is different than potential energy. Obviously, if the spring is too weak, then you need to stretch it further than the wrist can bend back. But you have to make it very weak, indeed.

Of course tightening your wrist requires more arm speed but I'm pretty certain that the stiffer wrist will have more potential energy, you just need enough speed/acceleration for it to still bend. This is one of the things I took away from Brad Walker's snap thread, when he was talking about resiting the wrist bendng back. I'm pretty sure the mechanics are the same for bh or fh, just reversed.

Anyways, I think the answer is, the wrist should be as stiff as you can make it, and still have it bend.

I don't buy that. If you can hold a spring and the wrist bends back a lot (but not past its physical range of motion, which is the real limit), then you'll get just as much potential energy back from letting the wrist uncoil.

The real difference, though, is probably in the time scale for the release of the force of the spring F on the disc. For a spring this is F=-k*x. For a loose spring, you get the same kinetic energy out of the disc, but it takes a longer time for it to uncoil. For a tighter wrist, higher k, you get a more rapid acceleration than with the same throw using a more loose wrist.

This is why I think the wrist should tighten up, especially going into the snap. In other words, you can start with a smaller k, and then manually increase k going forward.

 

[Widdershins]

Thanks for joining the site, Mark!

Absolutely!!! Thanks for the Discraft videos Mark and persuading me to try the Rattler. What a lovely disc only if it were available in a premium plastic.

Really? A Rattler in candy plastic!!

A Rattler is a touch disc so grip matters a lot. The current run of Rubber Rattlers is superior: Grippy, slightly concave and they still take forever to break in.

When the Putt'r came out it was run in Z plastic (and the Putt'r is pretty similar to a Rattler) and I didn't care for the candy version. They molded too stiff and domey for my liking.

 

[JR]

I've thrown Rattlers on drives on laser straight lines repeatably and accurately to 200' maxing out at inaccurate and not well repeatable 250' in cold humid weather. To my understanding rubber Rattlers were a very limited run available to just those in one of your videos. Where can I get them? ESP or even a little FLX into it if you feel grip is a problem would suit me. Having small hands and short fingers a Rattler is the most manageable and most high speed stable lid type no fade _driveable_ putter. And killer putters in low to no wind situations. And a mess in winds.

My Z Putt'r is much flippier and more difficult to release cleanly than D Rattler while driving. Considering my stubby fingers a slightly lower Rattler would be even better for me but Birdies, Sonics etc. just don't cut it in the high speed portion of the flight. Rattler FTW when driving while requiring a fadeless flight! Magnets and omega SSs work too but they don't float and on approaches fade much more. Rattler is the straight flight king not Comets (DGR inside joke).

 

[SkaBob]

Some of the Rubber Rattlers made it out to stores. Other than the one I traded off Sleepy, that's where I picked up the rest of mine. It's tricky to tell which ones are and aren't the rubber ones though, because they run both plastics in the same color orange. If you push down on the top of the flight plate right by the rim, the rubber ones turn white more noticably. That, and being more grippy than shiny is how I've been identifying them...

Not sure how MANY made it to stores, or if any made it overseas by you though, JR...

 

[DillonN]

I'm sure most of you have already seen this video, but it's just really good.

Look at second :33 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHSZyYAVPbs

 

[sidewinder22]

I would love a Rattler in ESP or FLX. I was so pissed when I taco'ed my Rattler off the tee in a tourney after only having it two weeks. In the two weeks I had my Rattler I loved it and had a number of near aces with from 200-250'. I just replaced my Rattler and the plastic feels a little stiffer, like a newer blend of ProD, that might hold up better than the last one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7haXaVs_RM
I love this vid! Its amazing how much power Geoff Bennett gets and he doesn't keep his elbow in, but he keeps his elbow forward and weight over. I think this gives him a lot more leverage. The second drive in the vid of Bunnell's BH is also impressive!

 

[JR]

I have old D plastic Rattlers and a new rubber D Rattler. I haven't driven with the rubber one yet because I just got it and literally was standing on a tripod in the snow when I tried my new Mako (great disc in calm weather!) straight from the post office. So I didn't have the Rattler with me. Putting mishap indoors had the Rattler hit a corner and it made the disc lighter and minimally scuffed. The speed was nothing compared to drives. So I have concerns about durability but can't see it really until the snow has melted which for Finland is months away.