Are we just making things up with nose angle stuff now?

[Brychanus]

Food for thought - How do the Pros adjust their nose angles with different starting angles, (briefcase, flat, reverse briefcase, etc.), and different reach back, power pocket and arm release angles? Is it grip, forearm pronation/supination and/or internal/external shoulder rotation?

It is very clear that GG, from a briefcase starting position, is going to have to rotate his arm, hand and disc in order to have a flat release. So I went in to my mocap software and measured the change in forearm rotation and shoulder rotation of briefcase hangers, RIcky and GG, and generally flatter throwers, Calvin and Chris Dickerson. Here is a very small sample size of unscientific data (I don't know their specific grips and I don't know their exact nose angles for the throws analyzed.). This is taking the relative positions of each joint center at max reach back (RB), deepest power pocket (PP) and release. Hard for many to understand, but I think many of us nerds on this forum may be able to grasp the following numbers. PP to release is relevant to this thread.

Ricky - From max RB to his deepest PP, 6° of supination and 17° of internal shoulder rotation. From PP to release, 10° of supination, and 23° of external shoulder rotation. Net hand rotation (forearm/shoulder) from PP to release in a nose down direction 33°.

GG - From max RB to his deepest PP, 10° of pronation and 22° of internal shoulder rotation. From PP to release, 19° of supination and 27° of external shoulder rotation. Net hand rotation (forearm/shoulder) from PP to release in a nose down direction 46°.

Calvin - From max RB to his deepest PP, 13° of supination and 28° of internal shoulder rotation. From PP to release, 3° of pronation and 15° of external shoulder rotation. Net hand rotation (forearm/shoulder) from PP to release in a nose down direction 12°.

CDick - From max RB to his deepest PP, he has 7° of supination and 33° of internal shoulder rotation. From PP to release, 16.5° of pronation, and 28° of external shoulder rotation. Net hand rotation (forearm/shoulder) from PP to release in a nose down direction 11.5°.

These world class pros have intuitively figured out a way to control their nose angles with varied body positions and timing. It appears that the primary driver is external shoulder rotation with help from forearm rotation. So when you look at wrist angles on 2D images, or are trying to understand turn the key, or pour the coffee, please realize that it is a complex learned coordination that getting there may be different for everyone. I hope to mocap some other pros later this year and I will combine with TechDisc and try to get better data.

Thank you for taking the time to do this and to write and report it, Chris!

I bolded a part near the end that I found to be a fair takeaway, FWIW.

Edit: After updating my own priors with this, one part I found interesting was the consistency in internal rotation into the PP across players, which is what I had thought to be "preferred" (so I'm glad for that!).

I suppose I still have questions within-player between-shots, but I was especially curious about the (1) total net hand rotation and (2) PP-to-release variation.

For (1), I was slightly surprised by Ricky's (but less in hindsight), and not surprised by GG's (just because I tend to think of GG as relying on several highly rotational mechanics in general). The pronating+externally rotating combination in the other two with noticeably less net hand rotation makes me more curious, if anything, about the pressure interactions through the hand (which is mostly just my curiosity in minutiae).

I am really now just more curious how much of this is just a "fit to anatomy" or a difference in style that, if adopted by the other players, could be more effective than the other.

The lack of any obvious PP-to-release pronating + further internal rotation is interesting, and IMHO part of what has been a confusion in parts of the discussion in this thread.

For both (1) and (2), I'm still curious how consistently a shoulder/arm tends to rotate in one and only one direction into the PP and then out of it.

 

[itlnstln]

Strategic (intentional) learning is a more complex topic, and comes with both more upside but also more downside in adults, which are more likely to get stuck in learning ruts when their analytic assumptions are false but they persist without changing strategies, which is often (not always) hard to determine without experimenter (i.e., not the learner) manipulation.

Quoted for emphasis. Guilty of this myself, to be sure.

My wife has been having putting struggles and wouldn't change aspects of her form *even though* she would see herself on video and comprehend it was inefficient and not working for her. Her thought was that her form was modeled after other FPO players, so the form was fine and her failure was in her execution. She wanted to learn a spin putt, so she started putting more similarly to Matty O., and had a ton more success. She said something to the effect of, "I should have tried changing strategies a long time ago."

The main learnings I had here are 1) don't be afraid to scrap things that don't work and try new things and 2) have a trusted coach/external observer that will tell you when shit is broke, and 3) LISTEN. TO. THAT. PERSON.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Would you think, that you would have to force the pronation through the throw, to let it stay pronated?

That's what I was saying. If you start fully pronated (full briefcase) and you keep the disc fully pronated and you throw a normal launch angle, the disc does not easily come out of your hand when throwing like this. So you have to forcefully flick the wrist to get it to rotate out of your hand or manually release the disc. You have to do something unusual is the point.

I think people's pushback regarding your.. thoughts? Are justified.

Most of the push back is repeatedly bringing up things I don't disagree and painting me as if I do disagree. I agree simpler form should be taught and learned first and fundamental form issues prioritized. I agree that turn the key can put more strain but with conditioning I don't think it's a big risk. I agree there's a risk of too much external shoulder rotation.

that needs to be timed in a span of what? 0.1 seconds? Sounds like something no one would benefit from. Newbie, intermediate or pro.

If no one would benefit from it then why do many pros do it?

This part addresses the valid pushback of unnecessary additional complexity:

At a certain point in the development of one's form, once they have solid fundamentals, that is when turn the key could be useful based on personal preference, but to find out if it's liked at this point it would require some actual dedicated practice to see how it feels once you are used to it. For some people, once used to turn the key, it could feel smoother to briefcase and then turn the key because comparatively, trying to maintain the disc's orientation to be the same throughout the whole throw can feel overly restrictive. It also happens that the mechanic can provider a bigger range of nose down options too, which is another thing that can be useful after you have the fundamentals down.

I think we see a similar pattern develop for some pro's forehands, you see more complex swings where the disc is further from the intended plane during the backswing for some people but other pros keep it much more on plane the whole time.


A lot of people who successfully learn or are taught to get their nose down finally by fixing their grip and other things are probably rarely getting the nose negative and instead are going from double digits nose up to 3-5 nose up, which is a big success and very manageable nose angle which you can still throw far with. If all you are doing is watching it fly it's not easy to see if it's +3 or -3.


The reason I turn the key is because I've found out the grip alignment I use, which is commonly recognized as a well-aligned grip, in addition to pour the tea, still results in slight nose up. I have many options to change things to get the nose down, like changing my grip, or inverted swoop swing plane, but turn the key, only after I got used to it, feels great (smooth, not jerky) and allows me to use my more comfortable grip and more comfortable swing plane and still have multiple options for more or less nose down. It also makes internal shoulder rotation feel more comfortable before and into the pocket.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Strategic (intentional) learning is a more complex topic, and comes with both more upside but also more downside in adults, which are more likely to get stuck in learning ruts when their analytic assumptions are false but they persist without changing strategies, which is often (not always) hard to determine without experimenter (i.e., not the learner) manipulation.

Very cool.

Maybe this is why I've developed the habit to do a large sampling of different techniques, even when things are working, and continually test / experiment. Since I tend towards the more strategic and analytical, this habit could've developed as a way to helps avoid and escape ruts.

It feels early on like I'm slowing my progress since I usually quickly find something that produces good results, but there's some intuition that I should keep trying other stuff too, knowing I can always come back to what was working if it still seems worth it after trying other stuff.

 

[Kennets]

"why do so many pros do it?"

I know my grammar and English can be tough at times, but you aren't reading my stuff dude. I just said that i think it's more of a passive move. No one's is arguing about supination not being a thing, it's more the passive/active part of it.

I have to call it quits on this thread.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

"why do so many pros do it?"

I know my grammar and English can be tough at times, but you aren't reading my stuff dude. I just said that i think it's more of a passive move. No one's is arguing about supination not being a thing, it's more the passive/active part of it.

I have to call it quits on this thread.

Yeah I missed your distinction between active / passive. I think a lot of pros have developed it passively because they've played since they were kids and have had a long time to evolve naturally. But if you aren't already doing it passively and want to test it out, you can't just make it passively happen so it would require doing it actively for a while to build up the muscle memory for it to then become passive.

 

[Brychanus]

Very cool.

Maybe this is why I've developed the habit to do a large sampling of different techniques, even when things are working, and continually test / experiment. Since I tend towards the more strategic and analytical, this habit could've developed as a way to helps avoid and escape ruts.

It feels early on like I'm slowing my progress since I usually quickly find something that produces good results, but there's some intuition that I should keep trying other stuff too, knowing I can always come back to what was working if it still seems worth it after trying other stuff.

Earlier you mentioned the large sampling space, which can be valuable. I don't think it is as well-studied in general whether fluency in multiple skills in a new space benefits from more fluency earlier in life in other spaces, but my guess is "probably." In other words, I am not surprised if a well-rounded athlete can try and then drop things more quickly early on. There's probably some learning risk there in terms of exploring too much too early, but another benefit is not becoming too trenchant too early. Those athletes also do probably have some neurocognitive and physical advantages to begin with if they are that active in sports early on, too (whether I like it or not, those appear to be real things even if there are important details to consider).

One strategic change I made recently was to put the video recordings down for a while once we landed on something that was trending toward looking reasonably good on me (holistically!): I committed to get outside and work on my throwing intentions and overall motoin, and supplemented my habits with things like fitness, mental game, rest intervals, fun factor, etc. That strategy has worked well recently but I expect I will need to change strategies again sometime soon for the sake of new progress.

Since I started with nearly zero relevant "athletic reservoir" to pull from, I do still think that the countless drilling reps, experiments with alternatives, etc. are "making up for lost time" and the ceiling is likely somewhat lower for me than someone with those advantages, time will tell I suppose.

Also, #neverskiplegmobilityflexibilitycoreday

 

[itlnstln]

"Risk" sounds like the language of a Sith.

It's shaping different shots.

Every time I see this video, I have 3 thoughts:

1) Robbie Bratton was fun to watch when I would play in tourneys in Texas (many) years ago. I wonder what happened to that guy
2) I wish MJ would show up on post-production coverage more
3) My fingers are woefully short

 

[RowingBoats]

Clearly you meant "gee darn frak," which need not be censored

Some combination of analytic insight, personality, projection, and the usual high-quality DGCR BS you uniquely encounter here.

How's your Monday?

I'm always good bro. And I agree, I don't hate the thread lol, but its...quite a thread rofl.

Monday is going well, just got back from vaca with the fam Couldn't bring my bag so I took a Glitch to play a couple rounds!

 

[RowingBoats]

Every time I see this video, I have 3 thoughts:

1) Robbie Bratton was fun to watch when I would play in tourneys in Texas (many) years ago. I wonder what happened to that guy
2) I wish MJ would show up on post-production coverage more
3) My fingers are woefully short

Lol man, I'm with ya. I'm only 5'8 and have what seem like small hands even FOR my overall size.

I really wanna know what its like to be like...Gannon/AB with those levers/hands. I think it must be a huge advantage.

 

[isamoor]

This is already a very micro thread so I will add to its micro-ness -

Please keep in mind the center of rotation when supinating or pronating. If you put a pencil in your hand between your thumb/index, generally aligned with a disc grip, and then rotate your forearm, in order for the center of rotation to be at the point of the pencil, you need to increase ulnar deviation in order to align the pencil tip to forearm rotation.

"IF" your intention is "turning the key" the focus of the rotation should be at the point of the key (disc) which is at the pressure between thumb/index not up in the wrist. No matter how you get there, the nose angle delivered to the disc is the orientation of your thumb/index at the instant of release.

I finally had some time at the same time my wife was free (she has the kinesiology background to help understand your suggestions). It still isn't super clear how to align the pencil when pinching it, but I understand the intent that after the pencil is in place, you want to adjust your arm until you are rotating the nose angle while the pencil "holds still". This helped me feel the desired orientation of arm and hand.

After fidgeting around for 20 minutes with the tech disc I wasn't exactly able to get it nose down perse. But I got it nose neutral with a four finger power grip. And that's by far the best I've ever been able to do with a four finger power grip. I think if I spend more time iterating from there I might be able to get it at least 1-2 deg nose down consistently. It was super nice seeing very high spin rates without focusing so hard on that (a little over 50% advantage ratio on most backhands). I can get nose down with a bonopane grip, but it takes a lot of focus to keep the spin rate up with that funky grip (I can usually get it to high 40s advantage ratio).

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[itlnstln]

All time classic! Never gets old. It was that video that got me over to DGR back in '06-'07

Great, great vid.

 

[Sheep]

You seem to have a hard time understanding that people learn at different rates since you keep bringing up how long I've been playing. I've ran into many people who've played for 3+ years or 5+ years who barley know anything other than common lore because they just play and don't actively research, practice to really integrate new knowledge. So time played is not a useful metric on it's own, you should know that.

I don't know if you remember, but I was repeatedly accused of overthinking things early on, but it's amazing how much you can get done when you play almost daily for 9 months straight and think way more than most people that entire time (since they believe it's thinking too much), in addition to constantly testing things out instead of tunnel visioning the first thing that works.

For the thumb position/pressure, it's pretty obvious if you pay attention to how the thumb pressure feels in different positions, then all you need is some logic. Plus, I can't make shit up for long because I have a tech disc which instantly shows me when something doesn't do what I thought it would do. I think you're afraid to get one because of how it will shake up your understanding.

You don't need to focus on thumb pressure to pronate, but it's much easier to pronate a gripped disc during a throw with thumb pressure, and even easier again when the thumb is deeper into the flight plate because it provides more leverage in the direction of pronation.

Of course there's still lot's of stuff I haven't learned yet, known and unknown.

It has nothing to do with your rate of learning. You do obviously learn quickly.

But this is what you don't understand and want to get upset about it. You don't have the experience or the knowledge to back it up. This is what hubris is, or the dunning kruger effect. It's not a slight or an insult, it's just trying to get you over the slope into the "oooooooh, I get it" zone. This is how I know you're not listening to me or others. Because you want to sit and argue stuff you cant possibly have the experience for.

On the following image here, not a single one of us in this chat is at "plateau of sustainability." We are all still learning and exploring more and more.




It's not that nobody wants you as part of the conversation, it's that you sit here and talk as an expert in the field when you're a newbie.
We want your data you're getting. It's good data, but it also doesn't mean anything for anyone but you.
This is not how you gather data to form conclusions, especially in disc golf where the standard motions of a swing are different for everyone.

We would have to have 10-20 people trying to emulate what you're doing and then compile that data to even get any level of substantive conclusions because of how different everyone's swing is.

So it doesn't matter what your video game tells you when you throw into a net for your "experience" when it comes to talking on the topic.

 

[Sheep]

You are attacking a straw man. I haven't seen anyone say teaching / learning a good grip should be skipped in favor of turn the key. I agree a good grip should come first. I've thoroughly tested like 8 different BH grips with the tech disc--I take grip very seriously and find it fascinating.

This is "turn the key derangement syndrome". People hate it so much and don't want it to be a useful technique (at any point???) so they start attacking points that people aren't even making.

Which vid of yours do you show the grip you teach btw? I've prob seen it already but curious to double check it to see if it's the standard old faithful or a tweaked version of it or something else.

It's not a straw man argument.....

A straw man fallacy is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction.


If anyone is anyone is refuting an argument different from the one I originally presented while not acknowledging anything about what the problem is, it would be you and your defense of the turn the key gimmick.

 

[Brychanus]

I'm always good bro. And I agree, I don't hate the thread lol, but its...quite a thread rofl.

Monday is going well, just got back from vaca with the fam Couldn't bring my bag so I took a Glitch to play a couple rounds!

Nice, we were down at the Outer Banks and I got to play the Casey R Logan course again with a bag-o-comets.

 

[Sheep]

Can we focus on the ideas put forth in here and not discuss who or what Neil is or isn't? An idea can be helpful independent of the person proposing it.

It's a bit difficult to have a discussion when someone rolls in and wants to pound their fist on the table about how they know more than the collective of everyone else discussing things. Stifles anyone's ability to really have a discussion when only one side is listening.

A lot of the odd pushback in here is really emotional responses to things that... dont' really need that.

The topic is about turn the key and why its a gimmick.

To which someone has defended the gimmick and refuses to listen to anyone else as they know more about the subject than anyone in the world.

So yeah, some people are a bit done with that.

 

[Sheep]

and not surprised by GG's (just because I tend to think of GG as relying on several highly rotational mechanics in general). The pronating+externally rotating combination in the other two with noticeably less net hand rotation makes me more curious, if anything, about the pressure interactions through the hand (which is mostly just my curiosity in minutiae).

I am really now just more curious how much of this is just a "fit to anatomy" or a difference in style that, if adopted by the other players, could be more effective than the other.

The biggest issue when people analyze GG is that they dont realize that he's like 200 lbs lighter than he used to be.
It's probably not actually 200 lbs. but GG used to be a BIG kid. Very large.
His form developed around his size and around the age of 16 (maybe younger) he was absolutely smashing discs. I know someone who played around him when he was young.

So his unique form developed from partly the fact there wasn't a bunch of info out there, along with him working around his body build.

This is why some things are so hard to discuss because everyones body moves different. We can't measure 1 thing from 1 person and just make a flat hard statement "this is how this works."

We can, however, when gathering larger data sets make very confident statements, such as on this topic, that grip and posture are keys to throwing nose down. Not more gimmicky style moves like trying to jerk your wrist over at the last second.

I put that in the "stupid but it might work" category. Because its possibly a que to someone to help them learn the proper wrist deflection. But you'd be better off doing it the way stokley showed in the video I posted, it will be far less impactful on your body vs trying to jerk your arm and wrist around to whatever.

Then style wise, you look at players like Oakley. People can't stand his swing.
Well. IT's weird and it works. He can throw 500+ looking like that. because he's hitting key points we know you need for success. But his form developed from where he learned to play disc golf. A hyzer course (I think in texas? i forget, he talked in length about it on a podcast). so if you look at his throw setup, its very hyzer dominate, then he had to learn to roll that into different shots.

Point being, there is more than 1 way to skin a cat, but you still have to get to all the places when skinning the cat to get the fur off. You can't just skip them and call it good.

Technique overall is individual to everyone, but at the same time a progression of steps that leads to success. It's not a mechanical motion, its a flowing motion, and we must build that system for ourselves to work with our body and anatomy to become successful. This is the hardest part about coaching. What technique works for one player might not ever work for another player.

And encouraging any technique, in my opinion, that could lead to injury of someone is a bad thing to do. And that's more of why I'm against this turn the key wrist flip forearm whatever we want to be pedantic about sorta thing here.
This is a really good way to get someone hurt as a throw que if its not working and the proper instruction and thought processes have not been worked through with the student.

People can think I'm a hater all they want.
I suck at disc golf cause I'm trying all these silly things all the time. I'm constantly breaking my form to actually learn the differences in these whatever techniques that people are blathering about out there.

But the point isn't necessarily to make it successful, its to learn what it actually does and why it does it. And as we saw in the video posted about it, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with nose angle. never once was it addressed in that fashion on the video.

It was just turned into something by hungry youtubers who coach to get some content in quick.

All a pro has to do is mention a disc and it will suddenly sell, and everyone hangs on the words of pro advice even if its horribly wrong. But gotta follow the trends. Because views and it brings people into your circle.

IT's unfortunately not about understanding the big picture first like I took my time to do before posting a video and then throwing some shade at everyone who ran out really quick to get on the trendy train.

I pulled 5k views off a trend video when I average 400.
That's how big of a difference trends make, and you gotta get on them.

F... trends. Make good content that you actually understand the meaning behind so you can help people to the fullest possibilites vs just teaching something you dont actually understand how it works.

 

[Sheep]

If no one would benefit from it then why do many pros do it?

Again. there is no proof that pro's are doing it. You are stating that and maybe like 2 other people?

While a few of us are telling you that is not correct.

You want it to be true so badly that you're, at this point, just making things up. You can look at it observationally and maybe make that conclusion, but that doesn't mean its correct.
Chris's notes from the study were not posted in favor of the technique, but to annotate that pro's are supinating, also HOW they are. And it's with the overall swing technique to get that motion and control it.

These world class pros have intuitively figured out a way to control their nose angles with varied body positions and timing. It appears that the primary driver is external shoulder rotation with help from forearm rotation. So when you look at wrist angles on 2D images, or are trying to understand turn the key, or pour the coffee, please realize that it is a complex learned coordination that getting there may be different for everyone.

This is a posture thing in technique
He's talking about setting up your body properly so it flows properly. Not trying to snap it into the correct place at the last second.

It's a bandaid for wrist deflection due to poor technique. That is all. It's not a hidden secret sauce. Pro's not over there thinking about how much they gotta pour the kettle and turn the key. They have spent YEARS making their swing elite level. Grip changes, form changes, shoe changes, footwork changes, posture changes. It's not as simple as trying to flip your hand over to supinate in the hit.
It's also not as complicated as a lot of coaches make it out to be either. But when we get into some of these really complex things, its not as simple. It takes a lot of time to get the right data, and it takes a lot of discussion to really figure out whats going on. But no, it's not pro's snapping their wrist over at the last second to get the nose down. They are using their body correctly to perform that action naturually, which is what you want.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

It's a bandaid for wrist deflection due to poor technique.

Turn the key is just a cue to dynamically supinate the wrist. There is plenty of evidence that dynamic supination is happening in many pro's forms especially when comparing side by side someone who supinates a lot vs someone who is mostly already supinated and maintains it. In theory, you could have two throws with mostly identical posture everywhere else but with different amounts of supination happening. Most likely you'll also get some more external shoulder rotation with the supination as well as Chris' stats show since they rotate together often, but I don't think most people would notice that as a large posture change.

I'm more interested in the underlying mechanics of what the cue is targeting than the cue itself. You can redefine the cue if you want to so that there's no evidence for it based on your new definition.

How is turn the key a bandaid in this scenario? What is being bandaided?
Throw 3: Throwing -3.5 nose down without doing turn the key, so without the "bandaid" I still have good results, my wrist is working well in this throw presumably.
Throw 4: Light turn the key for -0.8 nose down
Throw 5: Medium turn the key for -4.4 nose down
Throw 6: Lots of turn the key for -7 nose down.

These 4 throws have similar posture and produce similar other stats:
Hyzer: within 5.5 degrees
Launch: within 3.4 degrees between throw 3 to throw 5. It's within 6.7 degrees including throw 6. Throw 6 admittedly includes more risk of launch angle variability because I was using extra turn the key effort than what I normally use, just like if you try to throw harder than normal you introduce more risk of being off somewhere else.

Is it not a bandaid in this specific case?
Is it only a bandaid when it's misused?
If it's only a bandaid when misused then it's not inherently a bandaid, instead there is a risk of it being used as a bandaid. I agree that risk is there and should be warned about.