Simon Lizotte does a Form Critique

[Dan Ensor]

I'm going to kindly push back a little on this. I think forward pump and pendulum is much easier form for amateurs, allowing one to abandon arm to gravity and enabling one to feel weight of disc better than static disc with still arms. You can still, at least somewhat, work body around disc.

I've never experienced what you're talking about, but I have serious doubts the gains can outweigh the likelihood of rounding and swooping.

You can still totally work your body around the disc; as was stated, a lot of top pros do. It's just not as obvious or forced using a pendulum.

 

[deyo7]

I've never experienced what you're talking about, but I have serious doubts the gains can outweigh the likelihood of rounding and swooping.

You can still totally work your body around the disc; as was stated, a lot of top pros do. It's just not as obvious or forced using a pendulum.

AMs are going to suck either method if do it wrong. But using the inertia of forward pump and backswing, IME, is more natural way to feel the weight of disc and for swinging the lever/arm. But whatever works.

 

[BeRReGoN]

Some examples here, first 4 throws in this video: Mcbeth, Johansen, Schultz, Schusterick
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP6F62H35sg&feature=youtu.be&t=60

Mcbeth: Pump forward, bring the disc back and then he extends his arm straight a bit.
Johansen: Pump forward, short circular reach back with his elbow bent.
Schultz: Pump forward arm straight, wide circular reach back.
Schusterick: Straight reach back.

I can be wrong but the way I see it is when Simon reach back, yes the disc looks like it stays at the same spot from the side view but from behind you see he had to bring his arm and disc a bit sideway when he is planting his front foot. If he didn't the disc would be completely behind him. In fact both him and Will seem to start the forward motion with the disc more behind them than the other 3 in the video I posted. The other 3 kind of leave the disc more in front of them and they are planting forward into it.

 

[sidewinder22]

I've never experienced what you're talking about, but I have serious doubts the gains can outweigh the likelihood of rounding and swooping.

You can still totally work your body around the disc; as was stated, a lot of top pros do. It's just not as obvious or forced using a pendulum.

AMs are going to suck either method if do it wrong. But using the inertia of forward pump and backswing, IME, is more natural way to feel the weight of disc and for swinging the lever/arm. But whatever works.

I don't think the forward pump/pendulum backswing has any more propensity to rounding or swooping than keeping the disc still or static. IMO the pump/pendulum is smoother, more consistent as that's how a grandfather clock keeps time, and it's more efficient as you aren't wasting energy holding the disc in a static position against gravity. I don't think it's a coincidence that the all the best players ever use a forward pump and pendulum action... Climo, McBeth, Shultz, Doss, Feldberg, MJ, Philo, Kallstrom.

Lizotte, Jarvis, and Schusterick keep the disc static or still and they are well know for their power, but not exactly their consistency. I don't think there is really any power advantage to it either. Both current backhand distance record holders pump and pendulum, Wiggins and Jen Allen, and previous record holders Stokely, Sandstrom and Voigt.

 

[rhatton1]

The biggest benefit I've found with learning players with the pump and swing is it more naturally keeps their bodies moving forward. When trying to work around the stationary disc there is so often a terrible habit of swaying the upper body back towards it so the spine ends up like this \ the pump keeps the spin more upright/forward at the plant.

 

[ranger]

I try to explain terms and demonstrate what not to do, and how to do things in most of my vids which is why they end up so long, even though I try to make them shorter. There is a lot of info my vids and don't expect anyone to remember it all watching it one time. It's like learning all other things, you have to be a student of the game and go over the material a number of times before you really understand it. I probably watched Shawn Clement and Mike Maves videos about 100 times before I really understood them.

I also think a lot of people don't actually do any of the drills and/or do them wrong which doesn't help. Most other sports have live coaches watching players doing drills and correcting them. Disc golf is a rare breed of sport instruction that is mostly online. It's rare I actually get to see anyone record themselves doing drills, and when I do it's often clear the errors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5xfv9jPqZs#t=8m26s

.

Yup. The hardest part of working on form is the need for constant feedback (at least in my case). I can't just practice for hours straight bc it's almost certain I'm doing something or lots of things wrong.

I constantly have to post videos before I can even try to move forward.

This would be legit impossible with the the help from the people here (sidewinder, slow, etc.).

And I completely agree about the videos. You have to watch multiple times to even have an idea what's happening. I've sacrificed my lunch hour going forward and made it a dg video watching torture chamber once I realized how little I actually understood about the throw.

 

[Dan Ensor]

I'm not trying to advocate one throwing style or another. I'm saying that if you're having problems working the disc around you instead of vice versa, keeping the disc motionless is a good way to fix that problem.

My observations have been that it's hard to get a consistent top to the backswing with a pendulum approach; I have no data to back that up. I spoke too quickly on that subject.

 

[ranger]

I think we can put a more fine a point on this: you have to do the drills correctly. I use drills when coaching, and I spend a substantial amount of time pushing, pulling, and directing - just to get the drill done correctly. We try to come up with simple drills, but sometimes that isn't so easy to do.

If you want an example, wade into Ranger's "Rearranging deck chairs..." thread in Form/Analysis. They've been working for a long time for him to understand how to swing a hammer correctly.

I think that players who want to develop world class power/form have to take complete ownership of their form rebuild. What does that mean? You've got to study the gold-standards and A-B them against your form, frame by frame, from multiple directions (side and behind). This should be done by the player, not the Sidewinders and SlowPlastics of the world. It should be done each time you do field work. It's the means by which you're verifying that you're getting closer to your goal.

Find a coach who can work with you in person.

If you think you are doing something right, fundamentally right, be open to debate and be willing to investigate other ideas. That's the difference between being a charlatan and a "form scientist".

I'm not calling anybody a charlatan, I'm saying that if you're not willing to withstand the rigor of debate and questioning - then there's going to be people who are distrustful of demands of respect.

Please know, I'm not directing this toward anybody in particular (and certainly not the person I quoted) or Simon. It's just something I've been thinking about, as a personal short coming, in that I will often think that I've locked into something absolute - but then I fail to take the next steps to attempt to disprove my own theory and/or investigate competing theories.

These are all fair points

I would say there is a pretty steep learning curve with the video analysis though. It's very difficult to notice some of the issues if you lack the basic understanding of the backhand throw.

I'm only now starting to be able to identify some of the issues I have in my throw, but I needed that initial feedback from the people here. It's even more difficult with the drills when you may not even get the exact purpose.

I only post maybe a third of my videos right now. I'm starting to be able to self-diagnose (some of the time) and weed those out. I still obviously hit a point where I can't figure out what is wrong.

The more I work on my form, the more I'm impressed that anyone has figured this out. Being able to teach it is even another level.

 

[billyjacko]

Yeah, but I think that's one of the fundamental limits of such a niche sport. It's pretty easy to find a tennis coach or somebody to give you a swing lesson in golf. But it's a lot harder to find somebody who A) has a good understanding of disc golf technique, B) can teach (which is a different skillset), and C) is local. SW22's right about most of the good instruction being online.

Not to sound too harsh Gooby, but lack of athleticism is killing your advances. Drills try to advance an understanding of how to control your body, but if you have no reference for athletic starting and finishing positions, it's SUPER hard to learn those later in life. Stuff like learning ice skating or skateboarding would do wonders for your DG game.

There's the opposite spectrum where people are athletic and refuse to take critique because they think they know better (I was and sort of still am in this realm.)

Either way, there's no magic bullet. I think we want to believe something will just click and we'll throw like Drew Gibson, but that's really not how it works. You have to grind and you have fail, but most of all you need to throw a million Frisbees and film yourself constantly.

I've never experienced what you're talking about, but I have serious doubts the gains can outweigh the likelihood of rounding and swooping.

You can still totally work your body around the disc; as was stated, a lot of top pros do. It's just not as obvious or forced using a pendulum.

I don't think the forward pump/pendulum backswing has any more propensity to rounding or swooping than keeping the disc still or static. IMO the pump/pendulum is smoother, more consistent as that's how a grandfather clock keeps time, and it's more efficient as you aren't wasting energy holding the disc in a static position against gravity. I don't think it's a coincidence that the all the best players ever use a forward pump and pendulum action... Climo, McBeth, Shultz, Doss, Feldberg, MJ, Philo, Kallstrom.

Lizotte, Jarvis, and Schusterick keep the disc static or still and they are well know for their power, but not exactly their consistency. I don't think there is really any power advantage to it either. Both current backhand distance record holders pump and pendulum, Wiggins and Jen Allen, and previous record holders Stokely, Sandstrom and Voigt.

The biggest benefit I've found with learning players with the pump and swing is it more naturally keeps their bodies moving forward. When trying to work around the stationary disc there is so often a terrible habit of swaying the upper body back towards it so the spine ends up like this \ the pump keeps the spin more upright/forward at the plant.

My problem with the pump has always been timing it. I can pump similar to McBeth or Doss, but when it comes to the Feldy or SW22 pump, I can't throw anything but hyzers (which I've seen out of both of them).

 

[sidewinder22]

Not to sound too harsh Gooby, but lack of athleticism is killing your advances. Drills try to advance an understanding of how to control your body, but if you have no reference for athletic starting and finishing positions, it's SUPER hard to learn those later in life. Stuff like learning ice skating or skateboarding would do wonders for your DG game.

There's the opposite spectrum where people are athletic and refuse to take critique because they think they know better (I was and sort of still am in this realm.)

Either way, there's no magic bullet. I think we want to believe something will just click and we'll throw like Drew Gibson, but that's really not how it works. You have to grind and you have fail, but most of all you need to throw a million Frisbees and film yourself constantly.

Gooby has definitely improved. Still a lot of improvement can be made without athleticism. IMO athleticism just makes your current form more powerful. IMO it's more mental/technique and practice - trusting basic fundamental changes in posture/balance and swing intention that seem and feel really counter-intuitive.

I agree with the rest of that ^.

My problem with the pump has always been timing it. I can pump similar to McBeth or Doss, but when it comes to the Feldy or SW22 pump, I can't throw anything but hyzers (which I've seen out of both of them).

There is no timing, there is only the kinetic chain sequence. Timing can vary in the sequence which is akin to tightening or loosing the nuts and bolts, but that's not changing the nuts and bolts breaking the chain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyidYew1BaU&t=3m30s

You should be able to throw about every shot you need from hyzer like Feldy, or adjust balance to anhyzer swing plane like Stokely below. I try to avoid throwing pure anhyzers, they are less efficient and much harder on the body, as well as less consistent and less versatile shot.

 

[billyjacko]

Gooby has definitely improved. Still a lot of improvement can be made without athleticism. IMO athleticism just makes your current form more powerful. IMO it's more mental/technique and practice - trusting basic fundamental changes in posture/balance and swing intention that seem and feel really counter-intuitive.

When we talk about mental/technique posture/balance, we are talking about athleticism though. It's the mind body connection to be able to make those changes. I didn't mean to say Gooby is a lost cause, but stuff like hammer throws/battering ram make more sense if your mind and body has some sort of reference point.

 

[pmay5]

I really enjoyed Simon's video also. The format of side-by-side, synced video's of Simon and someone like the rest of us (thanks Michael!!) was very good. It made it very easy to compare where we should be at each step of the throw.

So I made notes last night to refer back to, then went out in the garage to walk-thru and get the feel of Simon's instruction. I could kind of tell what I was doing right and wrong and what I needed work on. But sometimes it was hard to visualize.

So this morning, after working out at the gym, I was stretching upper body in front of a wall of mirrors in the free weight room. So I get the idea, since no one else is here, I can walk through the process and watch myself the whole time. I grabbed a 2 lb weight to simulate a disc. Then I thought, I can go full speed to put it all together.
Errr ... wait a minute, if I lose this weight, something is gonna break! :wall: So, I found one of those little sliding pads, about the size of a disc, and used that to "move my body around". That worked fine, still no one else there, so I went full speed and released the foam, plastic disc against the wall!! :hfive:

Yeaaaa, a new way to work on my drive, full speed and release of a "disc". Can't wait to "hit the gym" again. !! :thmbup::thmbup:

 

[deyo7]

My problem with the pump has always been timing it. I can pump similar to McBeth or Doss, but when it comes to the Feldy or SW22 pump, I can't throw anything but hyzers (which I've seen out of both of them).

In terms of timing, I think if you just start at same time Mcbeth does (right ft land pump) the rest is just feeling the force so to speak.



If Feldy underswing pendulum so to speak doesn't jive, worth trying Eric Oakley's relatively more horizontal wide backswing a try, even if just for kicks. Little easier to throw slight hyzer ("flat") throws IME. Note: you have to pay extra attention to "no collapse/hugging" of upper arm angle with this (thank you SW).

Note: I am posting Danny's video here because it was easiest place to find slowmotion video of Oakley. I don't even know what he's saying at this point in video because I have volume on mute to not wake my kids. I tried to start this at 1:19 but failed

 

[GoobyPls]

Not to sound too harsh Gooby, but lack of athleticism is killing your advances. Drills try to advance an understanding of how to control your body, but if you have no reference for athletic starting and finishing positions, it's SUPER hard to learn those later in life. Stuff like learning ice skating or skateboarding would do wonders for your DG game.

...

Either way, there's no magic bullet. I think we want to believe something will just click and we'll throw like Drew Gibson, but that's really not how it works. You have to grind and you have fail, but most of all you need to throw a million Frisbees and film yourself constantly.

I had to laugh at this. I'm pushing 40 and am definitely not what I would consider "athletic" anymore, but I think part of my struggles come from playing baseball growing up. I've probably thrown on the order of 50K pitches in my life, and my pitching form has a slightly exaggerated forward lean and low release point. I think that probably ingrained in my subconscious that I'm supposed to lean toward the target when I'm throwing something. That's a very hard habit to break for disc golf, and even when I think I'm not doing it, video shows otherwise. I'm sure many of us who picked up the sport late have a similar bad habit, which is one of the reasons filming yourself is so important.

I'm not under any illusion that I'll ever throw 500'. I don't think I'd even want to put in the work to throw that hard considering what it would probably do to my shoulder. It's much easier to do long-term damage to joints from repeated motions once you get older. But I don't think a consistent, controllable 350' on a golf line is too far a goal for a healthy adult male. That's enough distance to be competitive in MA2/MA40, which is enough for me considering how little time I have available to practice.

 

[axion]

I have such problems with drills that I'm really tempted to just fly to hyzer or sw for a week and pay them to fix me.

Something about reading the critique loses something in translation. I couldn't even get how to stand on my front leg properly after a few videos attempting to do so lol.

I'm 31 and did a front side flip a few weeks ago, and played college basketball, so I'd hope it's not a lack of athleticism.

I've got so 'into' my own head with form I went from throwing 400 to a strong arm 330' most days. Which totally ruins the enjoyment. I did better when I was just attempting to crank on a disc, and now I can't get back to that clear mind

 

[UhhNegative]

I have such problems with drills that I'm really tempted to just fly to hyzer or sw for a week and pay them to fix me.

Something about reading the critique loses something in translation. I couldn't even get how to stand on my front leg properly after a few videos attempting to do so lol.

I'm 31 and did a front side flip a few weeks ago, and played college basketball, so I'd hope it's not a lack of athleticism.

I've got so 'into' my own head with form I went from throwing 400 to a strong arm 330' most days. Which totally ruins the enjoyment. I did better when I was just attempting to crank on a disc, and now I can't get back to that clear mind

Sometimes it can help to just walk away from it all for a couple of weeks. Don't throw or think about discs. Or maybe change the focus to just having fun or spending time with friends or spending time in nature. I know when I was competing I ended up getting angry and not having fun and that totally spiraled into throwing even worse. Now after switching to right handed, my expectations totally changed and I'm having fun just throwing discs again.

 

[axion]

I wish lol. I tore both my labrums and had bi-lateral hip surgery which stopped my lifting and BJJ competions and stumbled into disc golf. I really only enjoy the competing, not the nature or just throwing. I know that sounds horrible.

Something's gotta give, I'm back handing like that Charles Barkley golf video.

 

[Dan Ensor]

I have such problems with drills that I'm really tempted to just fly to hyzer or sw for a week and pay them to fix me.

Something about reading the critique loses something in translation. I couldn't even get how to stand on my front leg properly after a few videos attempting to do so lol.

I'm 31 and did a front side flip a few weeks ago, and played college basketball, so I'd hope it's not a lack of athleticism.

I've got so 'into' my own head with form I went from throwing 400 to a strong arm 330' most days. Which totally ruins the enjoyment. I did better when I was just attempting to crank on a disc, and now I can't get back to that clear mind

That happened to me too. I just wasn't comfortable with my upper body to the point that I could ignore it. Or the change in my lower body necessitated a change in my upper body that I didn't get immediately. I believe the saying is "one step backward for two steps forward".

 

[sidewinder22]

Where's your ranch, Sidewinder?! I'm coming out to visit! Hah

 

[deyo7]