Stuck at the usual 350-380 on backhand

[Brenzo44]

I've been learning backhand since about November I think, working at it in field work on average 2-3 times a week. And...I've been eternally stuck at 380 max for like 3 months. I at some point had broken into the 450 club but one week of being locked in for weather and my body forgot how to.
So. I have these form check videos, if anyone could help that'd be awesome.

https://youtu.be/vQkVQ1MkGpM
https://youtu.be/g5BZoNyWskA

 

[Spn001]

I'm no expert, but your issue looks similar to mine. You are pulling through way too quick. Maybe try to lag the the shoulders and disc. It also looks like you might be rounding. Try to pull in a straight line.

 

[sidewinder22]

Your feet are really turned out from each other. Your rear foot is pointed 180 from target instead of more like 135.

 

[Brenzo44]

So it's been a long time since I've posted here.
I like to imagine that I'm better about the footwork, although I could probably close my front foot off more. I think I might be naturally duck footed.
What I'm more concerned about is I still think I'm unable to break the habit of pulling the main arm. Not sure what else could be wrong, but here it is:
https://youtu.be/KHCcn3eNWtY
https://youtu.be/YpLFSKdix1k

 

[sidewinder22]

You appear to be in anterior pelvic tilt or S-posture with your spine extended and shoulder retracted. Your first step on left foot is awkward landing and staying on your toes instead of walking heel to toe.

Engage your abs and glutes tucking your pelvis underneath you into more athletic and relaxed stacked posture with the spine in flexion and shoulders hanging forward.

 

[Brenzo44]

So essentially I'm "flexed backwards" at the spine instead of letting it be relaxed over the disc?
Would that be a correct way to say it?
And also so should every step be heel to toe except the x and plant step? I always hear people parrot "be on your toes".

 

[ray1970]

Well, for one thing you're throwing with the wrong hand.


While I am not typically one to give advice it sort of seems like your hips and shoulders are coming around together if that makes sense. Your hips need to start turning first and your torso kind of follows along. Your motion almost seems like a spin when it should be more of a twist starting from the bottom up.

Hope that makes sense and maybe helps.

 

[sidewinder22]

There's lots of incorrect sayings. Left/lead foot heel should hit the ground to give you stability and ability to stay more relaxed. Right/rear foot can vary whether heel hits the gourd or not, speed has a lot to due with it. Would you walk on your toes only?

Your spine is extended, not flexed (anatomically). Upper back/torso can relax into flexion. Lower torso/abs/glutes should be more engaged to stabilize the pelvis/lower spine.

 

[Brenzo44]

Okay, that makes sense. Will definitely work on that for a few weeks before I come back with updates. Also question based off your bow and arrow video; so as you move into the plant, should one's back be mostly target facing? I.e., the off shoulder is closer to the target than your head like you said in the video.
Ray's point of twisting the hips and shoulders separately makes me wonder that.

 

[sidewinder22]

Correct.

When your spine is extended it restricts rotation, so you kind of stop short in the backswing/transition and start going early or everything moves more together with less separation between them.

When doing the bow and arrow your hips/pelvis and chest/shoulders should all be rotating away but at different rates creating separation winding up the torso. Then when you let go of the arrow your hips/pelvis should go first with the chest/shoulders just slightly behind, but need to engage your core for the shoulders to try and catch up. You really don't want to the fire the hips way ahead of the shoulders during the forward swing as that will crank on the lower spine in a bad way.

 

[txmxer]

Correct.

When your spine is extended it restricts rotation, so you kind of stop short in the backswing/transition and start going early or everything moves more together with less separation between them.

When doing the bow and arrow your hips/pelvis and chest/shoulders should all be rotating away but at different rates creating separation winding up the torso. Then when you let go of the arrow your hips/pelvis should go first with the chest/shoulders just slightly behind, but need to engage your core for the shoulders to try and catch up. You really don't want to the fire the hips way ahead of the shoulders during the forward swing as that will crank on the lower spine in a bad way.

That's a great video. Something that all golfers (ball and disc) could learn from.

One way to increase speed is to use levers over shorter time or distance. This increases torque which creates greater injury potential. A slight increase in the distance delta or more consistent acceleration lowers the instantaneous torque/force and injury potential.

I know I've used my levers/joints to create additional acceleration in various sports and believe I've created injuries or increased deterioration in my joints over time.

The issue is whether you can/could get the same outcome with better mechanics. And, can you learn those mechanics without mega dollar 3d analysis and trainers that are among the best in the world.

Reality is it won't be easy. I try to encourage folks to respect their body and avoid/minimize injury. Something I'm not very good about.

 

[Brenzo44]

Also, Sidewinder, just a random question. Is there anything inherently wrong with what I'm doing with my legs? I like to imagine I'm shifting targetward instead of spinning. Probably could stand to time it differently, but want to know if I need to change the mechanics of that at all.

 

[sidewinder22]

You have no rear hip depth/buttwipe or balance on rear leg. You push/extend over to the right and get stuck between your feet.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139973
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133543

 

[Brenzo44]

Awesome, thank you.

 

[Brenzo44]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVwaz-97DLE&ab_channel=BrettRenz
So 3 main questions.

1. I remember reading about external vs internal rotation of the femur in one of the leg threads. My back femur is pretty much in the ER realm. I'm pretty sure it sits like that naturally. Is that something I should just let my body stay in its natural position or work to make it more IR?

2. Shoulders. My shoulders turn back a bit too early I believe, but I'm wondering if its okay for them to turn back as far as they do? I remember seeing sidewinder post something about Henna where her shoulders were far back a la the bow and arrow video.

3. Pretty sure I'm driving the shoulders about a hair ahead of my can crush. Which, I would imagine, leads to less power. Am I correct in that?

Since the posting of this thread I've gone up to about 430 max. Not sure if that's useful, but it is what it is.

 

[sidewinder22]

1. Mobility is typically your friend, unless it leads to weakness.

2. Your first step with left foot is backwards already, keep it pointed somewhat targetward like in the bow and arrow drill. Your rear foot ends up pointed 180 from target and you get stuck on it.

3. #2 should help make your weightshift quicker and less stagger.

Note how your shoulder gets jacked up because you aren't landing on your front leg properly to swing the shoulder forward over the knee like a battering ram.

 

[Brenzo44]

I've decided to completely restart and work from a standstill again a la Brychanus's journey since I cannot get my footwork to cooperate.
So, complete start from scratch. I figure I could probably do with not bunching up my left shoulder, although I do not know how to produce that, and I could probably keep the disc further from my body in order to get a better wide-narrow-wide swing.
Is that about right?
https://youtu.be/Fd7vEFI5Nrw
https://youtu.be/LB2Vk4AzHCw

 

[Kennets]

I've decided to completely restart and work from a standstill again a la Brychanus's journey since I cannot get my footwork to cooperate.
So, complete start from scratch. I figure I could probably do with not bunching up my left shoulder, although I do not know how to produce that, and I could probably keep the disc further from my body in order to get a better wide-narrow-wide swing.
Is that about right?
https://youtu.be/Fd7vEFI5Nrw
https://youtu.be/LB2Vk4AzHCw

Its always "fun" to start all over! Good luck man!

A few pointers. You need to get your throwing arm sorted out.. asap. You can have great body mechanics, but it doesn't matter
If the arm gets no benefit from it. You "collapse" your pocket and (not sure how to explain this) kinda throw with your arm fully stretched for too long..

Watch Ezra's video on the powerpocket and compare with still frames!

I struggle so bad with getting that elbow up and using the arm as a "hinge" and it's awful to fix..

Keep up the good work!

 

[Brenzo44]

Its always "fun" to start all over! Good luck man!

A few pointers. You need to get your throwing arm sorted out.. asap. You can have great body mechanics, but it doesn't matter
If the arm gets no benefit from it. You "collapse" your pocket and (not sure how to explain this) kinda throw with your arm fully stretched for too long..

Watch Ezra's video on the powerpocket and compare with still frames!

I struggle so bad with getting that elbow up and using the arm as a "hinge" and it's awful to fix..

Keep up the good work!

I've watched the gauntlet of videos, Ezra included and tend to lean towards just using Sidewinder and Brychanus as my main guides, but that's besides the point.

So are you saying my arm is...let's use the term "behind", as in it's delayed in the whole process, my body? Or are you saying to raise the elbow higher?

I'm also curious if other people have the same consensus; Over the years my method to deal with the arm is to just not think about it in order to prevent me from pulling, so I wonder if that's caused a bad habit somehow?
So many questions!

 

[Kennets]

I've watched the gauntlet of videos, Ezra included and tend to lean towards just using Sidewinder and Brychanus as my main guides, but that's besides the point.

So are you saying my arm is...let's use the term "behind", as in it's delayed in the whole process, my body? Or are you saying to raise the elbow higher?

I'm also curious if other people have the same consensus; Over the years my method to deal with the arm is to just not think about it in order to prevent me from pulling, so I wonder if that's caused a bad habit somehow?
So many questions!

Not sure if ita "behind", but it's not doing what it's intended to do! (No harm meant buddy, English isn't my first language, so having a hard time here lol).

If you look at people with good form, when they're in the pocket, they get a 90 degree angle (ish), with the elbow up. When you hit the "pocket" your arm is already extended and i got no clue why (other than the low elbow/collapsing the pocket or maybe the shoulder shrugging).

I would try to focus on getting the elbow out, push your shoulder "out" too and naturally let the whole thing unravel. I'm sure SW can be more of a help than i am.

I've been focusing on having a noddle arm too, but that didn't work for me.. i have to constantly think about the elbow and getting it up and out, without tensing the whole arm in the process.