The case for overstability

[Meillo]

I think if a hole allows for a clean hyzer with something overstable and you have the required power to reach the pin, that shot is the preferred shot.

That's what many pros do. Still, you have to take other factors into the equation, like wind and terrain (avoiding skips and such). Thus, it's not that easy, and holes without obstructions are rare (and boring).

 

[takman]

I think if a hole allows for a clean hyzer with something overstable and you have the required power to reach the pin, that shot is the preferred shot. For many people, understability will give extra distance which can give a birdie look on a similar line as opposed to a par. For wooded courses or specific lines, you need understability to be able to minimize fade.

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Disagree, I have played with many people of different skill levels that do not prefer the clean hyzer if allowed, it's a personal preference based on your abilities and throwing motion.

Sent from my desk....should be working

 

[slowplastic]

Disagree, I have played with many people of different skill levels that do not prefer the clean hyzer if allowed, it's a personal preference based on your abilities and throwing motion.

When I was learning and watching lots of tourney footage, I had to set out to practice hyzers because it's all I saw the pro's doing. It was definitely not the best option for me initially, it's 100% a practiced shot that you need to be good at. Once you've practiced it and you actually start having the gut feeling "I'm going to hyzer this" when you're out in the open and have no restrictions, then you know that you're comfortable with it and it's likely your best bet.

The hyzer flight is definitely the most reproducible/forgiving line, but I also agree that in no way does it mean it is every player's best option depending on their skill set. However with some effort it likely would be for many situations. I've played with some people who would rather flex a Tern for 280', to get a low straight flight and minimize fade, rather than hyzer a Teebird even though they have the arm speed to do so. 100% they are better off with the Tern shot at that time since they've thrown it so many times...but if they practiced the Teebird hyzer for a few afternoons I bet they would consistently score better over time. But you know what, they got to have fun with what they're doing too.

 

[Monocacy]

The other advantage of throwing a hyzer is that errors are partially self-correcting.

Hold on to a RHBH hyzer too long and the disc will fly higher and farther right. The higher flight gives the disc more room to fade, reducing the right-left error.

Release a RHBH hyzer too early and the disc flies lower and not as far right. The lower flight gives the disc less time to fade, reducing the right-left error.

This is assuming that the release error does not send the disc into a tree. :|

 

[takman]

When I was learning and watching lots of tourney footage, I had to set out to practice hyzers because it's all I saw the pro's doing. It was definitely not the best option for me initially, it's 100% a practiced shot that you need to be good at. Once you've practiced it and you actually start having the gut feeling "I'm going to hyzer this" when you're out in the open and have no restrictions, then you know that you're comfortable with it and it's likely your best bet.

The hyzer flight is definitely the most reproducible/forgiving line, but I also agree that in no way does it mean it is every player's best option depending on their skill set. However with some effort it likely would be for many situations. I've played with some people who would rather flex a Tern for 280', to get a low straight flight and minimize fade, rather than hyzer a Teebird even though they have the arm speed to do so. 100% they are better off with the Tern shot at that time since they've thrown it so many times...but if they practiced the Teebird hyzer for a few afternoons I bet they would consistently score better over time. But you know what, they got to have fun with what they're doing too.

You lost me somewhere in your second paragraph, but OK.

 

[takman]

The other advantage of throwing a hyzer is that errors are partially self-correcting.

Hold on to a RHBH hyzer too long and the disc will fly higher and farther right. The higher flight gives the disc more room to fade, reducing the right-left error.

Release a RHBH hyzer too early and the disc flies lower and not as far right. The lower flight gives the disc less time to fade, reducing the right-left error.

This is assuming that the release error does not send the disc into a tree. :|

What you are talking about?:\

 

[slowplastic]

What you are talking about?:\

It's exactly why a hyzer takes so many mistakes out of play.

If you try to throw a flat straight shot and griplock it right, it will end up like 30-50' right. You early release, same thing but way left. If you griplock a hyzer it just goes higher up on the same line/angle, and will fade to nearly the same place. Same with minor early releases, they will come out lower but on the same angle and have a more line drive hyzer toward the same point. Although if you early release a very OS hyzer shot bad enough then sometimes you can get a skip rather than have it dig in like anticipated.

 

[armiller]

The tomahawk is definitely the most accurate (and happen to be with overstable discs) shot, barring wind conditions.




I happily missed most of this discussion. But all I want to add is that a Teebird is one of my most accurate discs (non-tomahawk, that is ), and I'd call it overstable, even when I throw it straight. Maybe it's different from your Teebirds, but the basic absence of turn yet straight flight and predictable non-Firebird fade is one reason I love it. I don't throw Rocs, but aren't fresh KC Pros about the same thing in a mid-range?

 

[Monocacy]

What you are talking about?:\

This is a quote from DGCR archives in 2010 - perhaps it will explain better than I did:

If you release a bit late (like I can do) it will go higher, more right, and fade back bigger - right near the spot you were aimming for

If you release a bit early (like I do) it will not go as high, not fade as big - right near the spot you were aimming for

Or quoting myself from 2014 (I did have a sense of deja vu about this discussion):

Hyzers are somewhat self-correcting. If you throw hyzer and release late, the disc will fly wider and higher, resulting in more fade. Often with hyzers a "bad" shot will wind up in about the same place as a good shot, just taking a different flight path.

Does that help?

Edit: Slowplastic types faster than me.

 

[SonicGuy]

It's exactly why a hyzer takes so many mistakes out of play.

If you try to throw a flat straight shot and griplock it right, it will end up like 30-50' right. You early release, same thing but way left. If you griplock a hyzer it just goes higher up on the same line/angle, and will fade to nearly the same place. Same with minor early releases, they will come out lower but on the same angle and have a more line drive hyzer toward the same point. Although if you early release a very OS hyzer shot bad enough then sometimes you can get a skip rather than have it dig in like anticipated.

I'm ether parked or I'm not. I don't really care how not parked I am. Flat shot gets me parked a higher percentage of the time. I may end up an extra 30' when I mess up, but that doesn't matter.

 

[slowplastic]

I'm ether parked or I'm not. I don't really care how not parked I am. Flat shot gets me parked a higher percentage of the time. I may end up an extra 30' when I mess up, but that doesn't matter.

...so you can't hit putts outside of 10' is what you're saying?

 

[SonicGuy]

...so you can't hit putts outside of 10' is what you're saying?

Kind of. More like my outside the circle percentage drops off to luck. Like most golfers.

The premise is that a hyzer will have less deviation on the grip lock. My contention is that anything outside of 30' of deviation is enough to make it not really matter. 50' vs 100' is pretty much the same.

 

[slowplastic]

Kind of. More like my outside the circle percentage drops off to luck. Like most golfers.

The premise is that a hyzer will have less deviation on the grip lock. My contention is that anything outside of 30' of deviation is enough to make it not really matter. 50' vs 100' is pretty much the same.

Yeah if it's off by 30'+ I totally agree. I've definitely shanked a ton of OS hyzers and been parked though, it works for me. Again like I said above, it's a practiced shot though. If you're better at flat/straight shots then do that, but I think that shot is 3x harder to execute. And much prettier though.

 

[Meillo]

Hyzers are ugly, for sure. Flex shots, straight shots, and long annies are the beautiful ones, plus some tomahaws, maybe.

 

[DiscGolfMaster]

Hyzers are ugly, for sure. Flex shots, straight shots, and long annies are the beautiful ones, plus some tomahaws, maybe.

I agree. I also prefer to watch thumbers. I play disc golf for several reasons, one being that I love to watch the disc fly. Hyzers are more of a rocket up and plummet down kind of shot and are the least fun to throw and watch.

I rarely throw them unless it's absolutely necessary.

And spike hyzers stink on less than level greens. I threw a putter for years on a downhill 280ft hole near me and recently tried a spike hyzer 5 times or so. I would get it to hit all around the basket, but it always turned up on its side and rolled down the hill into the bushes. Unless it's super windy, I'll stick with my putter. Much more beautiful shot with the putter anyway.

 

[armiller]

Yeah if it's off by 30'+ I totally agree. I've definitely shanked a ton of OS hyzers and been parked though, it works for me. Again like I said above, it's a practiced shot though. If you're better at flat/straight shots then do that, but I think that shot is 3x harder to execute. And much prettier though.

Isn't a lot of it arm speed dependent? Slowplastic, I think you're in that category of players that can throw 400' pretty reliably, am I right? A lot of us are a little below that. I use lots of hyzers, but I'm way more likely to do some kind of low hyzer with a stable/overstable disc like a Teebird (or even Surge, Undertaker, Buzzz, KC Aviar) than a spike hyzer with a Zone or Firebird. Maybe I just haven't practiced enough, but I don't feel like I have the arm speed to utilize those shots.

I remember watching a couple rounds in a local tournament here (the 2015 Norman Pro/Am, that link is to Jomez coverage of a round with Sexton and McBeth) and being extremely impressed with some of the spike hyzers McBeth, Sexton, and other pros threw to get out of trouble. I could probably work on those shots and get a little better, but I think they become way more useful and more accurate when you can throw about a 100' farther than I can.

 

[PMantle]

Post three illustrates why I do not carry many overstable discs. I rarely have enough room to the right of the target for the flight to work.

 

[slowplastic]

Isn't a lot of it arm speed dependent? Slowplastic, I think you're in that category of players that can throw 400' pretty reliably, am I right? A lot of us are a little below that. I use lots of hyzers, but I'm way more likely to do some kind of low hyzer with a stable/overstable disc like a Teebird (or even Surge, Undertaker, Buzzz, KC Aviar) than a spike hyzer with a Zone or Firebird. Maybe I just haven't practiced enough, but I don't feel like I have the arm speed to utilize those shots.

I remember watching a couple rounds in a local tournament here (the 2015 Norman Pro/Am, that link is to Jomez coverage of a round with Sexton and McBeth) and being extremely impressed with some of the spike hyzers McBeth, Sexton, and other pros threw to get out of trouble. I could probably work on those shots and get a little better, but I think they become way more useful and more accurate when you can throw about a 100' farther than I can.

Yeah I throw golf shots 400ish which translates to 330' pure OS hyzers and 350'ish smooth hyzers with stable-overstable discs for me. High glidey hyzers can get past that but then it's not the same shot to me since you're putting a milder disc on a hyzer line rather than smashing something beefy really hard, although this is still a more consistent shot than a hyzer flip/turnover IMO.

I definitely agree about more arm speed making you want to throw OS more. When I got my first Firebird I hated it for a couple of months. I forced myself to use it all the time when practicing, but I couldn't throw it under 70% power or it would fade out of my hand and skip. Now I use them so much both FH and backhand and can manipulate them a bit as long as they aren't FAF-stable.

However the hyzer line I think if practiced is super consistent even at shorter range. Sometimes on little 150-200' shots I'll spike a Zone or a Firebird, pretty much anyone on this site has the power to do that without straining themselves. It lets me just pick how high to throw the disc and I throw it up to the apex halfway the distance to the basket. It's like underhanding a stone vs. overhanding a ball of paper to me. Even when I have to throw putter upshots I often try to put them on a mild hyzer so it lets me control where it lands better than trusting the velocity and glide factor.

It's definitely a practiced thing, I didn't like throwing them much initially and I didn't like super OS discs for some time. In hindsight I would have been better off with a very OS Teebird rather than a Champ Firebird initially for those hyzer shots. But I still think at short range it's a useful line to have comfortably. I use it in the woods a lot too, spike hyzer around/between tall skinny trees and land on hard pack ground rather than try to glide through a gap at a full disc width vs. 45 degree tilted disc.

 

[armiller]

Yeah I throw golf shots 400ish which translates to 330' pure OS hyzers and 350'ish smooth hyzers with stable-overstable discs for me. High glidey hyzers can get past that but then it's not the same shot to me since you're putting a milder disc on a hyzer line rather than smashing something beefy really hard, although this is still a more consistent shot than a hyzer flip/turnover IMO.

I definitely agree about more arm speed making you want to throw OS more. When I got my first Firebird I hated it for a couple of months. I forced myself to use it all the time when practicing, but I couldn't throw it under 70% power or it would fade out of my hand and skip. Now I use them so much both FH and backhand and can manipulate them a bit as long as they aren't FAF-stable.

However the hyzer line I think if practiced is super consistent even at shorter range. Sometimes on little 150-200' shots I'll spike a Zone or a Firebird, pretty much anyone on this site has the power to do that without straining themselves. It lets me just pick how high to throw the disc and I throw it up to the apex halfway the distance to the basket. It's like underhanding a stone vs. overhanding a ball of paper to me. Even when I have to throw putter upshots I often try to put them on a mild hyzer so it lets me control where it lands better than trusting the velocity and glide factor.

It's definitely a practiced thing, I didn't like throwing them much initially and I didn't like super OS discs for some time. In hindsight I would have been better off with a very OS Teebird rather than a Champ Firebird initially for those hyzer shots. But I still think at short range it's a useful line to have comfortably. I use it in the woods a lot too, spike hyzer around/between tall skinny trees and land on hard pack ground rather than try to glide through a gap at a full disc width vs. 45 degree tilted disc.

Hmmm it's making me question some of my shots. The main thing is probably just lack of practice, but I think a big part of it is that I tend to favor a thumber or tomahawk when I get in the 150-220' range. I don't usually encounter situations where a forehand or backhand hyzer allows me to attack the basket in a way that a thumber or tomahawk would not allow. Nevertheless, I'll pay more attention in the future.

Just for fun, I went through that round I mentioned, embedded below. Basically each of the players used some kind of spike hyzer for accuracy at some point in the round. It's mainly a walk down memory lane for me, since I remember being amazed at how well all these guys saved par with these. Paul's was especially impressive. Some of them are shots I could probably make with my arm speed, but some are definitely out of range.



11:30 & 19:10 Paul
11:45 Nate (forehand)
9:10 Bo
30:25 Ron
24:00 & 32:35 Kody

 

[Twmccoy]

It all depends how I'm feeling at any given time. If the wind is blowing or I'm not throwing mids well I'll pull out the Rask or XCal and toss them very reliably the same distance I'd throw a Buzzz or Truth.

Assuming its a 350'ish open hole with no hazards I'll probably just throw an overstable driver vs. a mid. I'll generally put the Rask closer to the hole more often than the Buzzz. Less variables and its like throwing a saw blade. You're basically taking glide and turnover out of the equation.