"The Method" by Brian Weissman

[Sheep]

The problem with methods, theories and all that stuff is. Well.

Doesn't matter.

You have to push with the cock you got so they say.

... Though I'm not sure what women are supposed to do in that scenario.


Everyone is built different, everyone is going to throw different, their flexibility will only go so far, they can only loose so much weight they can only do and get as far as THEY are willing to put the time into.

Hence my comment about Bearbite. That dude has lost weight disc golfing for starters. But... He crushes. Dude would murder almost all of us in here on the course throwing upside down tilts.

And we want to sit here and discuss something like "oh mobility and strength training are way more important."

Nah. What's important is learning your body and what its capable of, and applying a great attitude on top of it to achieve success.

So while all these threads and tests are cool on random weird finger grips, they ignore the key point, That doesn't work for everyone, you have to help people build what works for THEIR body, not yours.
All these theories. Cool story. It's not going to work for everyone. Just like this weird ass method of throwing isn't going to work for 99% of people out there.

People need to stop building systems off of themselves, and start building systems and theories on what they can build with others.

So your tech disc data means nothing to me, cause its you throwing it.
Your method means nothing to me because it worked for you doesn't mean it will work for any of my students, especially with as aggressive as it is.

What does work is me building a plan with each of my individual students based around their mobility and athletic nature and growing from there.

How it works in other sports doesn't necessarily fit the bill here in disc golf, and that's what makes it so unique from a teaching perspective.

I can just teach you the natural golf method in ball golf and have you playing decent golf in 30 minutes. (minus putting)

30 mins of teaching in disc golf and you're... doing something. Depending on your current athletic ability. There is just to many overall factors to make it easy. then we make it harder with all this other silliness.

We spend way to much time working on theories vs trying to work together to come up with real proven solutions where you can walk up to anyone struggling and go "this is the best way to figure this part out for you." and they immediately improve.

That's why my grip thing isn't out yet. I'm still working on it with random folks on the course. And I'm watching it work for them immediately. I'm not making up random numbers and putting them on my hand, or doing this other weird stuff. I'm looking at actual real people use a technique to find their grip that works with their body so they can throw better.

 

[Brychanus]

The problem with methods, theories and all that stuff is. Well.

Doesn't matter.

You have to push with the cock you got so they say.

... Though I'm not sure what women are supposed to do in that scenario.


Everyone is built different, everyone is going to throw different, their flexibility will only go so far, they can only loose so much weight they can only do and get as far as THEY are willing to put the time into.

Hence my comment about Bearbite. That dude has lost weight disc golfing for starters. But... He crushes. Dude would murder almost all of us in here on the course throwing upside down tilts.

And we want to sit here and discuss something like "oh mobility and strength training are way more important."

Nah. What's important is learning your body and what its capable of, and applying a great attitude on top of it to achieve success.

So while all these threads and tests are cool on random weird finger grips, they ignore the key point, That doesn't work for everyone, you have to help people build what works for THEIR body, not yours.
All these theories. Cool story. It's not going to work for everyone. Just like this weird ass method of throwing isn't going to work for 99% of people out there.

People need to stop building systems off of themselves, and start building systems and theories on what they can build with others.

So your tech disc data means nothing to me, cause its you throwing it.
Your method means nothing to me because it worked for you doesn't mean it will work for any of my students, especially with as aggressive as it is.

What does work is me building a plan with each of my individual students based around their mobility and athletic nature and growing from there.

How it works in other sports doesn't necessarily fit the bill here in disc golf, and that's what makes it so unique from a teaching perspective.

I can just teach you the natural golf method in ball golf and have you playing decent golf in 30 minutes. (minus putting)

30 mins of teaching in disc golf and you're... doing something. Depending on your current athletic ability. There is just to many overall factors to make it easy. then we make it harder with all this other silliness.

We spend way to much time working on theories vs trying to work together to come up with real proven solutions where you can walk up to anyone struggling and go "this is the best way to figure this part out for you." and they immediately improve.

That's why my grip thing isn't out yet. I'm still working on it with random folks on the course. And I'm watching it work for them immediately. I'm not making up random numbers and putting them on my hand, or doing this other weird stuff. I'm looking at actual real people use a technique to find their grip that works with their body so they can throw better.

I think it's great and healthy in the long run for people to be interested all the way from the deepest level of theory to the simplest of teaching tools and ideas.

If we're saying that different people will do each of those things to different degrees and everywhere in between for the sake of progress, I'm the first to rush to agree in the same way that I will always encourage people to talk it out, compare and contrast, and show and share.

Would probably solve a lot of problems, disc golf or otherwise.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

...
Everyone is built different, everyone is going to throw different, their flexibility will only go so far, they can only loose so much weight they can only do and get as far as THEY are willing to put the time into.
*SNIP*
We spend way to much time working on theories vs trying to work together to come up with real proven solutions where you can walk up to anyone struggling and go "this is the best way to figure this part out for you." and they immediately improve.

First part is part of what sold me on SW here years ago. Yes he's looking at some ideals when evaluating videos people submit but will also look to compare with a pro with good form that has a similar body type and movement as the person asking for critique. Not showing a video of Eagle McMahon and telling someone built like 10 years ago GG to do what Eagle does.

The biggest hurdle in this second part, what can we do quickly to get someone throwing well in 30 minutes or whatever. Is, to ALSO not start them down a path that needs to be unlearned once the plateau with the quick and easy. The whole reason I found this forum and dove down the form rabbit hole wasThis Video
I pulled the hell out of a lawn mower. But a few months of that has taken years to unlearn.

 

[Nick Carroll]

Yeah the video you mention was one of the first ones I saw when I wanted to learn how to throw properly, and that "lawnmower" tip basically taught me to have my elbow down low and I threw largely all-arm ever since. Really what a lot of those beginner videos did was leave out a lot of stuff like keeping the throwing elbow up, orienting the different body parts, how to use the off arm, planting then throwing, and so forth.

The video "Put for D'oh" mentions above:

 

[jupiterboy]

I think you've got to be able to see form before you can learn. I think every advance I've made is because I've been able to perceive something that I was previously looking at but couldn't really see.

Part of the issue I have is having to run down so many red herring tips that are ultimately hurting more than helping. I guess you don't know until you try.

 

[Brian Weissman]

Hey guys! Back in February I posted a teaser for my docuseries on /r/discgolf, to an interesting reception. While the post got a ton of traction and racked up over 120,000 views behind the scenes over two days, it also got an avalanche of negative criticism. I got called everything from a cult leader to an autistic cocaine addict, hopped up on steroids and TRT. If you didn't know better looking at it, you'd conclude the entire community was aligned against The Method project. But the dashboard stats told a different story.

Despite the concentration of negative comments at the top, the post had an 84% positive upvote rate. Even though Reddit's algorithms create a big selection bias for negative comments, most of the people who saw the post liked it. I got many private messages about the system after I posted it, both on Reddit and on Youtube.

I know I did myself little social credit by leading with a link to a hyperbolic and frenetic clip about grip. That was a deliberate choice, as the best way to drive algorithmic engagement is by fomenting controversy. Sadly we live in a PvP world these days, particularly online, where you can get a ton more interest if you piss people off and get on their nerves. I hate it, but it's just the nature of the beast.

The tone of the docuseries is completely different, as I'm sure you'll see if you watch any of the videos. It's meant to be equal parts instructive and entertaining. It's a celebration of joy, learning, fun and community. Nothing about it is confrontational. Fundamentally, chapter one of the series isn't intended for the veteran and discerning audience on this forum. That's part of the reason I never came over here to participate in the conversation.

The good news is that chapter two is already well under way. We've begun production on that section, with the intention to film in August. Unlike our original shoot in Seattle, which took 10 days, we'll be hopping around the country visiting various students of mine. Currently we intend to be in Michigan, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Nebraska, and Arizona. There is probably enough time to visit one or two other locations.

Chapter two is called "Adding Momentum". It intends to take people learning the system to the next level of their growth, moving from a stable standstill frame to a mobile one. My own form has massively evolved since we shot the documentary in October. As I've mentioned already in a different thread, I could only feel the proper sequencing and heavy leverage when I was stationary. Everything immediately fell apart the moment I started moving.

It's a totally different story now. I know I posted this in my announcement thread yesterday, but I'll link it again.

70 MPH Backhand Into the Net

My brain is still syncing the force production up to the spiking inertial mass of the disc, but it is trained perfectly on the weight of just my throwing arm. I think it would be harder to sequence better than what you see here:

Leveraging Just the Arm

I've browsed through this entire thread since it began in February, and rather than answering old inquiries, I figured I'd open things up to anyone who still wants to chat. Thank you all for your time, your passion and for your feedback. We all have the same goal here, we are collectively making a ton of progress elevating the sport!

Sincerely,

Brian Weissman

 

[zontar]

I think I'd rather play mediocre disc golf and read a good book instead, but that's me.

 

[Brian Weissman]

I think I'd rather play mediocre disc golf and read a good book instead, but that's me.

As a fellow Vonnegut fan, I can understand the sentiment. However, I don't believe these two things are mutually exclusive. My impending baby daughter's middle name is going to be "Vonne", as an homage to my favorite author. Have a good one.

 

[Jaani]

To each their own, as you say. I, as a fellow content creator and coach, have never understood the sentiment of PISSING PEOPLE OFF to get clout, i.e., acting out or playing a role for attention.

I'd rather listen to someone genuine and authentic, as I firmly believe in openness and a no-nonsense approach to coaching, for the truth doesn't need hype to spread.

I wish you good luck nonetheless. If people find help in these lessons, it's all been worth it.

 

[Brian Weissman]

To each their own, as you say. I, as a fellow content creator and coach, have never understood the sentiment of PISSING PEOPLE OFF to get clout, i.e., acting out or playing a role for attention.

I'd rather listen to someone genuine and authentic, as I firmly believe in openness and a no-nonsense approach to coaching, for the truth doesn't need hype to spread.

I wish you good luck nonetheless. If people find help in these lessons, it's all been worth it.

Hmm, perhaps I misunderstood what you meant Janni. Everything I post on my channel is authentic and open. Have you taken a look at my Youtube stuff? It is exactly how I present in person, with no exaggeration. I don't use a script, and I don't edit my stuff at all. There are no goofy closeups and jump cuts. All of it is done in one take, off the top of my head. It's as authentic and real as I'm capable of being.

The sentiments I expressed in that grip video, while emphatic, were genuine. I put it first in my list of videos because that's the only way to get the Reddit algorithms to care about what you post. For years I've been irked by the instruction that people are supposed to "grip the disc really tight in a power grip, with four fingers!". It's one of the most damaging things you can tell a new player, because they throw so soft they barely need to hold the disc at all. On top of that, as I'm fond of saying, "You can't be loose and whippy while you're tight and grippy." That is simply true for most players, particularly players who need to learn to unwind their dominant arm intentions that are ruining their ability to sequence properly.

If you can spare the time, check out my new Youtube channel and watch some of my videos on form and physics. I'm not acting or playing a role, I'm exactly that way all the time.

https://www.youtube.com/@BrianDiscGolf/videos

Thank you for the good luck wishes, The Method project is just getting started.

 

[ninjabq]

I assume he's referring to

I know I did myself little social credit by leading with a link to a hyperbolic and frenetic clip about grip. That was a deliberate choice, as the best way to drive algorithmic engagement is by fomenting controversy. Sadly we live in a PvP world these days, particularly online, where you can get a ton more interest if you piss people off and get on their nerves. I hate it, but it's just the nature of the beast.

In other words, "I did something I thought was important, and it happened to piss people off, and that led to further engagement" is arguably different from, and more genuine than, "I deliberately pissed people off for the express purpose of increasing engagement".

 

[Jaani]

I assume he's referring to

In other words, "I did something I thought was important, and it happened to piss people off, and that led to further engagement" is arguably different from, and more genuine than, "I deliberately pissed people off for the express purpose of increasing engagement".

Yes, this exactly. I'm just totally over the youtube game of fake drama and clout chasing.

 

[Sheep]

Hmm, perhaps I misunderstood what you meant Janni. Everything I post on my channel is authentic and open. Have you taken a look at my Youtube stuff? It is exactly how I present in person, with no exaggeration. I don't use a script, and I don't edit my stuff at all. There are no goofy closeups and jump cuts. All of it is done in one take, off the top of my head. It's as authentic and real as I'm capable of being.

The sentiments I expressed in that grip video, while emphatic, were genuine. I put it first in my list of videos because that's the only way to get the Reddit algorithms to care about what you post. For years I've been irked by the instruction that people are supposed to "grip the disc really tight in a power grip, with four fingers!". It's one of the most damaging things you can tell a new player, because they throw so soft they barely need to hold the disc at all. On top of that, as I'm fond of saying, "You can't be loose and whippy while you're tight and grippy." That is simply true for most players, particularly players who need to learn to unwind their dominant arm intentions that are ruining their ability to sequence properly.

If you can spare the time, check out my new Youtube channel and watch some of my videos on form and physics. I'm not acting or playing a role, I'm exactly that way all the time.

https://www.youtube.com/@BrianDiscGolf/videos

Thank you for the good luck wishes, The Method project is just getting started.

Jaani has years on all of us instructors/coaches except guys like seabass and loopghost.

I've learned more conversing with him than any other instructor.


What he's mainly referencing at this point is that the disc golf coaching is turning into a game where people are more concerned with getting out content before everyone regardless if its right or understood, or people making massively clickbaity video's or wild statements, hit pieces. It's just a bit of a mess, and I also wish people would stop rushing to get video's out to get the views before they understand concepts. Or now people are just making hit pieces which is even worse.

 

[Lumberjack504]

Just watched the videos and thought I'd share some initial takeaways.

1. Brian is a dead ringer for Coach K.
2. That's where slowplastic has been!
3. "The method" aka the rear thigh turn reminds me somewhat of what Mike Maves is showing in his navel video (I'd link it but can't find it. He has a beer in his hand), which is seemingly NOT a bug squish. Another similar cue is perhaps 'belt buckle targetward'. Not saying it's the same - just that my mind made the connection. Curious to hear what my colleagues here think of that point.
4. Fantastic production value.

 

[isamoor]

I appreciate the time put into the website and videos. Nicely polished.

Not sure if it was mentioned already in this thread (I didn't go through every page), but my first reaction was: they're trying to teach from the bottom up on this list: Common Plateaus, Issues, and Breaking Through Them

Which, if it works for some folks, then sure, try a different order of learning. I freely admit I don't use my hips well. I played baseball in school and didn't start trying to seriously snap my hips the other way until I was over 30. That's not a good recipe for learning that motion.

 

[Brian Weissman]

I'm going to begin a new thread with this reply, but I figured I'd put it here as well.


Hey guys, hope you're all well!

I apologize for the slow reply here, I'm just now catching up on the conversation. I recently returned from five days down in Estacada, OR, where I was assisting GKPro, DGN, and Jomez in recording radar speeds for all four days of competition. It's something I've been doing pretty regularly in June since 2017, though I took a hiatus after 2021 due to issues with the course and the event. 2024 seemed like a good year to return.

I won't talk about that here, as I don't have a ton of time currently and don't want to bore people with details they can watch in coverage. Suffice to say it was a blast to spectate as always, particularly watching Heinburg, Gannon, AB and Eagle up close. AB is really an anomaly at this point, he throws considerably harder than anyone else at the top of the sport, and he has 80+ MPH backhand on command. He threw 84 and 82 MPH on a golf line during the round I recorded him. That 84 MPH result is the fastest pure backhand I've ever observed live. I have recorded Eagle throwing 84 and 86 MPH in the past, but that was before his terrible shoulder injury and both were rollers. Roller mechanics require a later ejection, and tend to be 3-4 MPH faster than a person's normal linear ejection speed. Eagle was visibly in pain during his round, he winced noticeably after several drives, and his putting was way off. Such a shame seeing him struggling like that, he's always been one of my favorite players.

Anyway, I've just finished catching up on a lot of your great feedback and discussion, which I appreciate tremendously. Rather than going with a focus on specific comments, I figured I'd write up a concise explanation for why I'm focusing so closely on a back leg intention with The Method. I talk about this extensively in the final chapter of the main docuseries, titled "How it Works: Theories Behind the Method". Here is a direct link to that video if you're curious to watch it:

How it Works: Theories Behind the Method

I also suggest reading my write up there, which is good supplemental information.

Fundamentally, every single person trying to teach the disc golf backhand to adults has run up against the most intractable of problems. How do you get someone to begin a powerful, athletic motion that involves throwing an object without using their dominant arm and dominant hand first? More importantly, how do you somehow override the brain's natural inclinations to run things by rote algorithm whenever possible?

By the time you're an adult, most of your kinesthetic neuroplasticity is long gone. Whenever you do anything in your life, whether it's walking, running, eating, writing, shaving, etc, your brain's need to run on algorithmic "power saving" mode will govern what happens. This applies to the disc golf backhand as well, particularly when you have students focusing on dominant-side things like arm positions or specific grip. From the moment their hand touches that disc, even before they begin their walk up, they're going to be playing entrenched subroutines in their brain that begin on the dominant side of their motor control center. In the case of right handers, who make up roughly 90% of the population, that means the back left side of the brain.

The reason I have people initially focus 100% on their back leg, and specifically an internal twisting of their de-weighted back leg, is because it forces them into a different part of their brain. It forces them to begin the sequence on their non-dominant side, where their "Throw a Golf Disc" algorithm is a blank slate. Without this starting point, they're as likely to be successful keeping their dominant arm from beginning the sequence as they would be getting their lungs to take a big gulp of air while their face is submerged underwater. It's not going to happen, ever. Depending on your age, nearly every single thing you do is as autonomic as breathing. You do not have agency in it.

My success rate teaching players to build or rebuild their form using The Method as the starting point has been truly astonishing. I have players from all over the country and in Europe who have gained huge amounts of force production at absurd speeds. One of my students went from years capped around 400 feet to throwing over 550 feet with a slow walkup in just a month of steady work. Another student, a nearly 1000-rated aspiring pro from North Carolina just catapulted himself into the elite distance club, taking his farthest drive from around 470 up to 590 feet. A recent student came to me as a complete beginner, with less than two weeks of time in the sport. His name is Reegan, and after a little over a week of solo practice, supplemented with approximately 80 minutes of Facetime lessons, Reegan threw a Shryke 447 feet with this form:

Reegan bombing putters 330 feet

I have no doubt Reegan will throw over 500 feet within a week or two as he gains more balance and confidence on his left foot during the X-step. The guy is so green he can't even spell "McBeth" correctly, yet he's already one of the hardest throwers in the state of Pennsylvania.

My own backhand form is at the heart of the docuseries, it's the ultimate case study for the project. Objectively, the form I exhibit in the doc from back in October is deeply-flawed. I'd even go so far as calling it "trash". You guys have done an excellent job of picking it apart, I knew all the flaws I had back then, but lacked the ability to remedy them. There is a reason the logo for chapter one is a standstill.

When we shot last year, I hadn't yet learned the balance positions necessary to keep my center of mass in place during any kind of foot work. I also hadn't figured out how to use my right quad in sequence, so you can see me "hunting the bullet" too far to the right during my swing. I hadn't yet created a huge nexus of inertial mass with my biomechanics in October, so much of the secret sauce was still veiled to me. That's why I used Sebastian in the docuseries as an archetype of biomechanical perfection.

The videos currently on www.learndiscgolf.com are meant to be instructive, simple, and remedial. They represent only a starting point, an "ignition switch" for a completely new neurological subroutine that arises on the non-dominant side of a student's brain. They teach a very specific feel, that initial static point of braced resistance that lets a person feel arm leverage for the first time. Once they feel that arm leverage, they can hone in on the weight it creates to build the correct sequence instinctively, like a child would. Our bodies suck at throwing paper plates around. They're very good at throwing and bracing against heavier objects.

The instructive videos on www.learndiscgolf.com are an introduction to a new approach to learning backhand that has shown incredible promise for me and for many others. Work is already well under way for chapter two of the docuseries, titled "Adding Momentum".

The insights I will be explaining and displaying in that series are all over my Youtube channel, they have rapidly transformed my own biomechanics. I haven't given my body sufficient time to rest between all my gym work and throwing and other endeavors, but my current form is producing incredible velocity and extreme force production. Here are a few clips I just shot downstairs. I abstained from doing drives with actual momentum today because I promised I'd let my legs recover after the weekend, but the biomechanics and sequence speak for themselves. They get better and better the more you slow the video down.

Back view of swings using arm leverage

Side view of swings using arm leverage

Back view of standstills with max weight discs

I released The Method system completely for free, and spent a huge amount of time and money on it because I firmly believe it's a novel and extremely effective way to teach the elusive backhand to anyone, of any age, size, or athletic ability. It is the summation of more than two decades spent chasing the riddle of "Pro Form". In my effort to solve this riddle in my own body, I sought the help and advice of dozens of teachers and form gurus. I paid for lessons from established pros. None of them were able to communicate any of the necessary feel to me, and none of them made me even 1% better.

The Method is essentially "open source". I would love for paid coaches the world over to utilize its insights with their own students, so that we can all elevate the disc golf community together. I am not out to obsolesce anyone, nor to put any monetized coaches out of business. I may be challenging the established teaching and coaching orthodoxy, but I am not a threat to anyone.

Thanks for all your thoughts and feedback throughout this and other threads. I look forward to getting to know many of you better in the weeks and months ahead.

Sincerely,
Brian Weissman

 

[biscoe]

How many threads do we need dedicated to one "method"?

 

[Sheep]

How many threads do we need dedicated to one "method"?

At least 20.
You've been here since 2007, you should know how this works by now. =)

 

[biscoe]

At least 20.
You've been here since 2007, you should know how this works by now. =)

They aren't usually all started by the same person.

 

[Sheep]

They aren't usually all started by the same person.

I mean, He played MTG after Hasbro bought it. So. ... I mean that's my only defense here.

It's a silly one and a poke at my distaste that Hasbro ruined the game for me. and.. my childhood turned to shambles.
Okay I'm making things up.