Tuned disc legality for tournament use

[geoloseth1]

So I was hoping to play in an upcoming tourney this weekend (plans have since changed and I won't be able to make it................unless someone wants to sponsor me :wink: ) and I had a thought in my head about whether or not tuning discs was legal. So I posted the question on the PDGA discussion forum and got swamped with people from both sides.

Some arguments were saying "Absolutely NO" since rule 802.01c says Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics.

However other said it was perfectly fine because no weight was removed, no tool marks, the properties of the disc are the same, you can get the same results from improper storage over time, etc.

Anyway, one of the posters brought the question up to the PDGA Rules Committee for some sort of ruling. Here's what they said.
Dear Dan,

Thanks for writing!!!

I'd say so, but any disc's legality can be challenged by any competitor and the TD makes the final call.

Yours Sincerely;

Carlton Howard
PDGA Rules Committee Chairman

So now my question is to you all of the fine readers on this board (which is where I spend most of my time since I can't stand the bickering that goes on on the PDGA site). If you were a TD and someone brought up the topic of tuned discs what would you rule? Legal or Illegal?

 

[Working Stiff]

I have not TD'ed in years, but if someone had complained to me about a tuned disc I would have called the guy in question over and asked to see his tuned disc. I would have then proceed to pretend to examine the tuned disc for 10 or 15 seconds, at the conclusion of which I would have whacked the complainant over the head with said disc and told him to quit wasting my time.

 

[some call me...tim?]

I have not TD'ed in years, but if someone had complained to me about a tuned disc I would have called the guy in question over and asked to see his tuned disc. I would have then proceed to pretend to examine the tuned disc for 10 or 15 seconds, at the conclusion of which I would have whacked the complainant over the head with said disc and told him to quit wasting my time.

As a certified official, I agree with this ruling completely.

 

[Steady 26542]

I have not TD'ed in years, but if someone had complained to me about a tuned disc I would have called the guy in question over and asked to see his tuned disc. I would have then proceed to pretend to examine the tuned disc for 10 or 15 seconds, at the conclusion of which I would have whacked the complainant over the head with said disc and told him to quit wasting my time.

What he said!

 

[bcsst26]

I would say that the way that you and Bradley tune your discs there is no way that anyone would ever know what went on with the disc. No marks etc. I would say the disc should be fine to play.

 

[SkaBob]

"So, his Wraith flies like a Teerex."

"Yes!"

"And this bothers you."

"YES!"

"And if he was mud stomping you with a Teerex instead of a Wraith, it wouldn't?"

"Well..."

"So, basically, what you're telling me here is that when it's obvious you can't win on skill you'll look for every opportunity, even being a whining, conniving little douche to try and keep your betters from beating you."

"..."

That's about how that conversation will go if I ever have to have it as a TD, but I'm slightly more caustic than most... :twisted:

 

[Fritz]

I dont' like the idea of disc tuning. Just learn how to throw the damn disc or find a disc that does what you need it to do without having to post production modify it.
If you want your wraith to fly like a TeeRex, then buy a TeeRex for the shots you want TeeRex and use your Wraith for the shots you want it to fly like a Wraith.
What is the issue here?

I answered no, it shouldn't be legal because that was the question. I don't think it should be.

However I do have to agree it is legal because you could do the same thing to your disc by smacking a tree or a shed or hitting the cement really hard. So even if disc tuning was illegal, it wouldn't be hard to "tune" your disc and claim it smacked a tree.

As a TD I would examine the disc to make sure weight and surface treatments weren't added, if they weren't I'd say no problems here.

 

[Bruce1]

I dont' like the idea of disc tuning. Just learn how to throw the damn disc or find a disc that does what you need it to do without having to post production modify it.
If you want your wraith to fly like a TeeRex, then buy a TeeRex for the shots you want TeeRex and use your Wraith for the shots you want it to fly like a Wraith.
What is the issue here?

I answered no, it shouldn't be legal because that was the question. I don't think it should be.

However I do have to agree it is legal because you could do the same thing to your disc by smacking a tree or a shed or hitting the cement really hard. So even if disc tuning was illegal, it wouldn't be hard to "tune" your disc and claim it smacked a tree.

As a TD I would examine the disc to make sure weight and surface treatments weren't added, if they weren't I'd say no problems here.

I haven't voted, because the answers don't match the question!

I actually have the opposite view to Fritz, I think it is currently (technically) illegal, but completely undetectable without resorting to the manufacturing specs and highly accurate measuring devices, and unenforceable because you cannot tell if any changes were made through tuning or through normal wear and tear.

I think it should be legal, as the same effect can be achieved by ageing, and the act of 'restoring' a disc such as de-tacoing it is widely accepted.

I take your point about a teerex/wraith, but the most common use of this technique is to either hasten the ageing process on a new disc, or to reverse ageing on an old disc, neither of which offers any competitive advantage.

 

[garublador1]

Dear Dan,

Thanks for writing!!!

I'd say so, but any disc's legality can be challenged by any competitor and the TD makes the final call.

Yours Sincerely;

Carlton Howard
PDGA Rules Committee Chairman

So the answer is, "The rules are insufficient and any TD can make bent discs illegal if they feel like it."

I'll agree that it should be perfectly legal. Saying it should be illegal is almost as silly as trying to bend your discs juuuust right so they fly slightly different than before.

 

[Eric O]

I dont' like the idea of disc tuning. Just learn how to throw the damn disc or find a disc that does what you need it to do without having to post production modify it.

I don't understand why you'd be opposed to it in such a general sense. Discs change in stability and flight to a degree as they impact and skid when thrown. Tuning a disc simply accelerates or reverses the process with a goal in mind, rather than letting the natural impact and wear be the only factors that dictate aging characteristics.

It won't make a sidewinder fly a firebird line, or vice versa, so why does it matter? I don't think it's even a question of learning how to throw the disc better or finding a different disc, as much as it is a matter of restoring some necessary stability to an old disc or accelerating the aging a little with a new one.

 

[DiscGolfTeeSigns.com]

I dont' like the idea of disc tuning. Just learn how to throw the damn disc or find a disc that does what you need it to do without having to post production modify it.

what if you're sponsored by a manufacturer who doesn't have anything overstable?

 

[Steady 26542]

I dont' like the idea of disc tuning. Just learn how to throw the damn disc or find a disc that does what you need it to do without having to post production modify it.

what if you're sponsored by a manufacturer who doesn't have anything overstable?

I resemble that remark!! :lol:

 

[Fritz]

I dont' like the idea of disc tuning. Just learn how to throw the damn disc or find a disc that does what you need it to do without having to post production modify it.

what if you're sponsored by a manufacturer who doesn't have anything overstable?

I make due lol, amazing what hyzer + QOLF heavy will do, that and I'm really getting creative with the EXP-1. Technically I could get myself a Monster or Firebird but meh no need to really...I'm doing fine with my current bag set up.

Hurry up already with the "Orion LF-X" or whatever and the JLF darn it!

 

[Working Stiff]

I dont' like the idea of disc tuning. Just learn how to throw the damn disc or find a disc that does what you need it to do without having to post production modify it.

I don't understand why you'd be opposed to it in such a general sense. Discs change in stability and flight to a degree as they impact and skid when thrown. Tuning a disc simply accelerates or reverses the process with a goal in mind, rather than letting the natural impact and wear be the only factors that dictate aging characteristics.

It won't make a sidewinder fly a firebird line, or vice versa, so why does it matter? I don't think it's even a question of learning how to throw the disc better or finding a different disc, as much as it is a matter of restoring some necessary stability to an old disc or accelerating the aging a little with a new one.

My basic "who cares?" philosophy is that I don't care if you DO tune a Sidewinder to fly on a Firebird line, you still had to execute the shot. Right? So why does it matter if you executed the shot with a Firebird or a tuned Sidewinder? Whichever one you used, it didn't jump out of the bag and throw itself under the basket. If it conforms to Tech specs, it's all good.

 

[GorillaTactics]

I have not TD'ed in years, but if someone had complained to me about a tuned disc I would have called the guy in question over and asked to see his tuned disc. I would have then proceed to pretend to examine the tuned disc for 10 or 15 seconds, at the conclusion of which I would have whacked the complainant over the head with said disc and told him to quit wasting my time.

literal LOL.

I have to agree...I have limited experience with tuning discs, but certainly it isn't an unfair competetive advantage to bend your plastic until it flies differently...if you can figure it out, more power to ya. But it's mostly the player that makes the good shot happen, not the disc. Without the thrower putting it on the right line, it won't do you a damn bit of good no matter how well it's tuned.

 

[justinrich]

I was following the thread on PDGA closely. I take from the comments that everyone agrees that detecting a tuned disc is unfeasible for tournaments right now. Also, some people think that if some players tune discs, while others don't because it is not explicitly specified as legal. Personally I don't tune my discs.

I can't think of how tuning a disc gives a player an automatic advantage. Knowing the discs in your bag helps immensely and I just can't think of a difference between throwing the same discs for 3 years or tuning them to the way you want. It's not like tuning unlocks a secret warp zone that other players don't know about. My personal belief is that skill will always trump equipment all else being equal. Especially when everyone's equipment varies slightly anyway. Disc golf is not Nascar; we don't all throw the same molds.

Also, I read that some people think that tuning a disc in the middle of a round can give an unfair advantage because you could throw all of your overstable drivers into water and then tune a disc you have left to be overstable. Well good luck with that, because as soon as you tune a disc, how the disc performs becomes an unknown.

I think that a small clause should be allowed for tuning a disc, while maintaining the 21 cm diameter rule.

 

[Working Stiff]

I was following the thread on PDGA closely. I take from the comments that everyone agrees that detecting a tuned disc is unfeasible for tournaments right now. Also, some people think that if some players tune discs, while others don't because it is not explicitly specified as legal. Personally I don't tune my discs.

I can't think of how tuning a disc gives a player an automatic advantage. Knowing the discs in your bag helps immensely and I just can't think of a difference between throwing the same discs for 3 years or tuning them to the way you want. It's not like tuning unlocks a secret warp zone that other players don't know about. My personal belief is that skill will always trump equipment all else being equal. Especially when everyone's equipment varies slightly anyway. Disc golf is not Nascar; we don't all throw the same molds.

Also, I read that some people think that tuning a disc in the middle of a round can give an unfair advantage because you could throw all of your overstable drivers into water and then tune a disc you have left to be overstable. Well good luck with that, because as soon as you tune a disc, how the disc performs becomes an unknown.

I think that a small clause should be allowed for tuning a disc, while maintaining the 21 cm diameter rule.

The rule as written is old and does not take tuning into account. The Rules Nazis read this old, unclear rule as black and white and accept it's inherent contradictory rulings as law. They contend that "players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics" is "crystal clear in its prohibition of 'tuning.'"

The rest of us see the gray in this poorly written rule and decide that there is nothing "crystal clear" about it. If tuning was illegal, the PDGA could clearly write "Tuning a disc by bending the rim of a disc to change its flight characteristics is prohibited. Any tuned disc will be declared illegal for PDGA sanctioned play" in the rulebook. BUT...it does not say that. By not addressing the issue, the PDGA has shown the TD's how they would like the matter addressed...look the other way and hope no one notices.

So, really the rule is open to interpretation. My interpretation is that I don't throw Firebirds and really don't know what the rim looks like out of the box, so if you hand me two and ask me to rule on which is tuned I'd just be guessing. I have thrown Illusions and I've seen the rim angle vary wildly from the manufacturer, so how the Hell would I know if you tuned it unless you told me? Does it become legal to tune a Gateway disc because of the many molding variations they have from run to run (allowing you to argue you were trying to restore the "original" flight characteristics of the mold) but not legal to tune Discraft? Who knows?

The Rules Nazis can say this rule is "crystal clear," but it's a bad rule that (as always is the case with TDing a PDGA event) ends up putting the TD on the spot to make a ruling that is clear as mud and guaranteed to piss somebody off.

Which kind-of explains why it has been so long since I TD'ed a PDGA event.

 

[geoloseth1]

Working stiff is on to it again. The rule book was written years ago when plastics like star ESP and even pro weren't even ideas yet. Back then tuning a disc would only mean trying to fix a bend from hitting a tree. You would likely have ruined the disc if you really tried to change the flight of it. The PGA has had their rules with the advent of new technology and so should the Pdga.

 

[Cgkdisc]

If the rule were simplified so that players just couldn't add any material (except dye) or shave plastic from the disc such that tuning was allowed, then we should also remove the requirement that 500 discs be producted for retail sales for a new disc mold to be approved. In other words, manufacturers could produce discs that only their sponsored players could have. The rationale being discussed here is that nothing a player can do to tune a disc will make it any better than what is already available or can possibly be molded at this point under the current specs.

 

[Working Stiff]

If the rule were simplified so that players just couldn't add any material (except dye) or shave plastic from the disc such that tuning was allowed, then we should also remove the requirement that 500 discs be producted for retail sales for a new disc mold to be approved. In other words, manufacturers could produce discs that only their sponsored players could have. The rationale being discussed here is that nothing a player can do to tune a disc will make it any better than what is already available or can possibly be molded at this point under the current specs.

If Innova wants to make a special disc that only sponsored players can use (being unable to spread the cost of developing said disc across runs of thousands of discs to the consumer) thereby passing up the possibility of selling thousands and thousands of these discs to the general disc golfing public...more power to them. Companies that make stupid business decisions just go out of business, so soon the point would be moot.

The only reason I could see for a manufacturer to do this is to try to make it easier for their sponsored players to win money in events. I don't think a company would go to the expense of developing the next great disc and then NOT sell it just so that their sponsored players would have a competitive advantage.

If the disc in question is NOT the next great disc, then their really is no competitive advantage. If the Moray had been a "sponsored player only" release, I really don't think that would have changed many tournament results.

Anyway, the connection is a stretch. The reality is even if you do not tune your discs, anyone could. If there was a disc that Davey Mac made especially for Kid and Nikko that I can't have, then the option of throwing that disc is not there for me. I think your example is apples/oranges.