Understanding stability?

[Rastnav]

This might properly belong in one of the other discussion areas, but I figure it's a pretty noob question.

So, I understand the basic concepts of overstable and understable, and I can really feel the difference between, say, a Champion Teebird and a GStar Wombat. I know that the disc speed and the plastic both contribute to how stable a disc is.

The higher speed a disc is, the more it is overstable by nature. So, an understable distance driver is likely more stable than a overstable midrange.

Different plastics used in the same disc mold have an impact on stability as well. A champion disc will be more overstable compared to the same disc in G-Star plastic. I watched the same Innova video everyone else did, I assume.

I also understand plastic beats in over time and gets less stable (as impact damage noses the rim of the disc downward).

The question I have is about the rating numbers on the discs and how they relate to stability.

For example:
Rancho Roc: Speed 4/ Glide 4/ Turn 0/ Fade 3 ???
Wombat: Speed 5/ Glide 6/ Turn -1/ Fade 0
Leopard: Speed 6/ Glide 5/ Turn -2/ Fade 1
Teebird: Speed 7/ Glide 5/ Turn 0/ Fade 2

The Rancho Roc is in Star plastic. I don't know the ratings on a Rancho Roc, so I listed a regular Roc above. That one I can't turn over and it's easy to lose left.

The Wombat is in GStar plastic and and I can easily turn it over.

The Leopard is in Gstar Plastic as well. I haven't really turned it over just gotten it straight with a mild left finish. But, I can also easily lose it straight left.

The Teebird is in Champion plastic and is a "meathook" as I saw it described elsewhere in this site.

So, do the numbers actually have all that much to do with stability? Is it just the plastics? But why can't I really turn over that Leopard yet? I would think it would just as easy to do as the Wombat, but that's not the case at all. I wouldn't think the numbers would say that a Teebird should be basically impossible for me to throw straight at this point, not when I can easily turn over the Wombat.

Or are the rating numbers kinda useless? You just have to ask someone whether a disc is over or understable?

As usual, I write a book to ask a "simple" question, so thanks to anyone who got this far!

 

[armiller]

So, do the numbers actually have all that much to do with stability? Is it just the plastics? But why can't I really turn over that Leopard yet? I would think it would just as easy to do as the Wombat, but that's not the case at all. I wouldn't think the numbers would say that a Teebird should be basically impossible for me to throw straight at this point, not when I can easily turn over the Wombat.

Or are the rating numbers kinda useless? You just have to ask someone whether a disc is over or understable?

I'll see your book and raise you a volume.

The numbers do as good of a job as possible describing disc flight. But like you mentioned, there are many other factors that affect a disc's stability. If you try throwing warp speed discs like Katanas, you'll find that some are extremely overstable, but some are extremely flippy, even in just one plastic and weight. The numbers [13, 5, -3, 3] indicate to me that it is designed to be a high speed driver with decent glide and relatively high turn (aka low high speed stability or HSS), but the fact is that molding plastics is inconsistent. (As an aside, this tends to be worse for high speed drivers.)

I use that example just to say that numbers are far from the be all end all. If you look at Infinite Discs, you'll notice their numbers don't match the designers. Others mention that different manufacturers' ratings don't compare well to others. And then you'll see people on this site saying, "my beat Star Teebird flies like a 7, 5, 0, 2." So it gives a way to communicate information and give you some idea of expected flight, but all that becomes much less important as soon as the disc leaves your hand.

I haven't thrown a Gstar Leopard, but I have thrown Champ and Star. I can tell you premium plastic Leopards can be beefy. I personally bag and Pro Leopard, and I think that might be a decent purchase for any new player. Actually, they also start out with a surprising amount of overstability, but the advantage of Pro plastic is that it beats it much more quickly and then stays in a nice place (as opposed to DX, which tends to get really flippy really quickly). As another aside in this stream of consciousness post, give a 165-175 DX Teebird a try, and you'll see how much difference plastic can make. It might be a good straight disc, especially after some tree hits.

I wouldn't say the numbers are useless, but they are more of a "relative" comparison between discs, as opposed to some kind of absolute description. One thing DGCR is useful for is viewing the Disc forum when considering disc purchases. You can typically find people with a comparable arm speed to your own, and then find discs that have fit certain roles for them. And when the COVID zombie apocalypse has subsided, you can always try the good old "throw the plastic in your buddy's bag" thing.

Sorry dude. You bring out my verbosity!

 

[Armus Patheticus]

An understable driver is not likely to be more overstable than an overstable midrange. Some extremely slow discs are far more overstable than some extremely fast discs. A better way to put that speed in stability context is to assume that, given identical turn and fade ratings, a "faster" disc will fly more overstable.

The numbers are half information half marketing.

You can't turn that Leopard because you aren't throwing it fast enough.

 

[Rastnav]

I'll see your book and raise you a volume.


Sorry dude. You bring out my verbosity!

I'm all about some good ol' verbosity. My verbose speed is at least regional pro level. Arm-speed? More sub-chump.

I see a lot of reference to OAT (Over Axis Torque). I don't really know what that is, but I imagine it's something like rolling your hand over during your swing. Does that also play some role? Maybe I'm not actually turning the Wombat over, just turning my hand over.

Speaking of a DX Leo, I have a brand new one that came in a starter pack. I've thrown it maybe 4 times total, no trees. That thing turns over so hard it seems non-useful at this point.

How do disc weights play into all of this? I assume that starter pack Leo is lower weight than the other discs (although the Teebird is about 165g, I think).


@Armus Patheticus

You can't turn that Leopard because you aren't throwing it fast enough.

Oh, I very much understand. The question I was asking was more "Why is more arm speed inadequate for a disc that, by the numbers, should be equivalent to another disc I have in terms of the ease at which you can turn it over?"

 

[Armus Patheticus]

OAT is off-axis torque. Meaning that you are creating rotational force contrary to the intended spin and primary axis of the disc. This manifests itself as wobble or flutter and makes the disc behave as more understable.

Disc weight matters, but not a lot.

Even by the numbers, a Leopard is not equivalent to a Wombat in turn. You have to throw a Wombat "5" to get turn, but a Leopard "6". But remember that the numbers are only vaguely useful, and in no way precise.

 

[mostlynorwegian]

I'm all about some good ol' verbosity. My verbose speed is at least regional pro level. Arm-speed? More sub-chump.

I see a lot of reference to OAT (Over Axis Torque). I don't really know what that is, but I imagine it's something like rolling your hand over during your swing. Does that also play some role? Maybe I'm not actually turning the Wombat over, just turning my hand over.

Speaking of a DX Leo, I have a brand new one that came in a starter pack. I've thrown it maybe 4 times total, no trees. That thing turns over so hard it seems non-useful at this point.

How do disc weights play into all of this? I assume that starter pack Leo is lower weight than the other discs (although the Teebird is about 165g, I think).


@Armus Patheticus


Oh, I very much understand. The question I was asking was more "Why is more arm speed inadequate for a disc that, by the numbers, should be equivalent to another disc I have in terms of the ease at which you can turn it over?"

You may be tumbling a few ideas together, but. Not sure yet.
Disc weight does a lot for a disc, and how it behaves.
Lighter weight equals less stability, and or requires less speed to replicate the same behavior. but also the plastic itself can do the same thing. My two max weight Gazelles are a prime example. The Champion one is a meathook. The Star one is absolutely not. I have to release them on very different angles to get to the same spot. And, then on the weight side of same plastic with a lighter one, and a heavier one. My wedge's also demand me to release them at very different angles to achieve the same result.

 

[Armus Patheticus]

A big part of the reason that different plastics impact stability is that a Thunderbird (for example) in Champion plastic is not the same disc as a Star version. It only has some of the same writing on it.

The shape of the disc determines the stability, not the stamp.

 

[knivvves]

Marshall Street's Flight Guide is useful in understanding stability. If you click on a specific disc, you can see its intended flight. That'll help you learn what those Turn and Fade ratings mean, and also help you see if you're throwing the disc correctly. A new player is likely to have at least a handful of things off about their form that are going to cause the disc to fly differently from intended.

Also it's important to know that flight ratings are just a rough guide, and that disc golf manufacturers are all rating slightly differently. Hell, Discraft didn't even use the standard 4 number system until 2018 I believe. A lot of companies rate their discs how they fly when they're brand new. But then for Innova's premium plastic discs, they'll usually fly more overstable than their ratings - you need to beat them up a bit before they start to fly like their ratings.

The higher speed a disc is, the more it is overstable by nature. So, an understable distance driver is likely more stable than a overstable midrange.

I wouldn't agree with this. I think the confusion is either because
1) the farther you throw a disc, the more it has time and room to move left or right.
or
2) a player with a 7 speed arm who is throwing a 12 speed disc, that disc is going to act very overstable.

 

[DiscFifty]

Or are the rating numbers kinda useless? You just have to ask someone whether a disc is over or understable?

If you understand disc speed and the requirements needed to get a disc up to the speed where it flies like the rating, it's a bit easier to come to grips with. Typically the biggest mistake those new to the sport make is buying higher speed discs. At that point unless you're a natural born bomber, they're ALL going to fade left early on for the most part. If you stick to speeds 7 or less, a new player will have a much better chance of getting the disc to eventually...perform similar to the rating. And.......you'll have a much funner experience as you learn the game.

 

[Horsman]

Ive always looked at flight numbers as accurate for top professionals and that everyone else is going to have to figure out how those numbers translate to them. Infinite discs does a prety good job at this. Me being a pretty proficient player means that Im pretty confident that I can pick up any disc and look at the flight numbers and be able to throw it accordingly.

 

[Casey 1988]

I'm all about some good ol' verbosity. My verbose speed is at least regional pro level. Arm-speed? More sub-chump.

I see a lot of reference to OAT (Over Axis Torque). I don't really know what that is, but I imagine it's something like rolling your hand over during your swing. Does that also play some role? Maybe I'm not actually turning the Wombat over, just turning my hand over.

Speaking of a DX Leo, I have a brand new one that came in a starter pack. I've thrown it maybe 4 times total, no trees. That thing turns over so hard it seems non-useful at this point.

How do disc weights play into all of this? I assume that starter pack Leo is lower weight than the other discs (although the Teebird is about 165g, I think).


@Armus Patheticus


Oh, I very much understand. The question I was asking was more "Why is more arm speed inadequate for a disc that, by the numbers, should be equivalent to another disc I have in terms of the ease at which you can turn it over?"

OAT Is also Over Wrist Snap, In that you turn the wrist from where you have it at begging of throw to straight when disc is in the release stage of the throw. I tend for the more bent elbow style of throw rather then what the long arm Pro players do that uses a bit more wrist snap in the throw for all shots up to long putts with my Shark discs. I have short arms so I need the snap as my arms are not able when extended straighter to get all of the snap that they can get using the shoulder as a pendulum.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

OAT = Off Axis Torque
It refers applying a torque to the disc that isn't about the discs axis of rotation. Yes, the word "about" is grammatically correct in that context.

While the term off axis torque accurately describes what's happening, some people refer to it as Wrist Roll, which I think for most people, paints a more descriptive picture of the motion we're (usually) trying to avoid.

Part of the problem with disc golf nomenclature, is that people make chit up, or cobble together disparate bits of stuff they've heard from folks ...when they don't actually understand what something really means.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

OG thread on OAT:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=846

 

[BrotherDave]

Disc stability is generally only comparable among discs of the same speed. Destroyers for example vary a lot in stability but a speed 5 Justice midrange is more overstable than many if not most speed 12 Destroyers. But you wouldn't really compare the turn and fade numbers of Destroyers and Justices; they're only really relevant when comparing Destroyers to each other or other similar speed discs. The speed number is basically the requirement needed to get that disc to fly its other numbers (glide, turn, fade). If you don't have the ability to get a disc up to speed, it won't fly like its numbers but it will fly generally more overstable.

Rancho Rocs are regular Rocs. Just trust me on this. Dave Dunipace (big cheese at Innova) loves to tinker with molds and especially popular ones so there are a gazillion different Rocs. If you have a Roc and it doesn't say Roc3 or RocX3 or VRoc or something like that, it's probably a Rancho (aka the tooling on the bottom says Rancho Cucamonga)

Plastic and stability have a fluid relationship. Generally, the denser the plastic, the more likely it is to mold up with a higher parting line height (PLH) or to put it another way shrink less (lower) when it cools. It's also more likely to have less glide, sometimes. But plastic is a very marginal variable in terms of dictating stability.

OAT has been explained quite well. Picture a record spinning perfectly flat. Now imagine a pea or pebble falling onto the record around the edge. This new direction of force acting upon the record is Off Axis Torque, making the record wobble. If the pea falls on the record closer to the center, the OAT will be less and the record will stabilize faster. A player imparts OAT onto a disc by rolling his wrist (in any direction) during the throw. If the player keeps his wrist completely neutral the disc will only spin along an axis running through the center of the disc (aka a clean throw). A perfectly OAT free throw is like throwing a perfect game though. Advanced players will intentionally throw with OAT to make certain flight lines. Rolling your wrist under can help with hyzer flips or spike hyzers, rolling your wrist over can help with rollers for example.

Like most new players, you're not getting drivers (Leopard and Teebird) up to speed yet. Even though Leos are the de facto beginner drivers, Leos in premium plastic can still be doggedly stable if you're a greenhorn. There is a longstanding tradition of learning how to throw with putters and mids first and then graduating to drivers. I think FW drivers are good to learn with though because they teach you how to keep the nose down better whereas mids and putters are less nose angle sensitive. Controlling nose angle plagues noobs.

 

[Armus Patheticus]

Advanced players will intentionally throw with OAT to make certain flight lines. Rolling your wrist under can help with hyzer flips or spike hyzers, rolling your wrist over can help with rollers for example.

I'm not sure exactly what BD means here, but it's probably incorrect either way. While advanced players may manipulate nose angle to acheive particular flights, I have never seen any decent player throw with intentional OAT. There is no such thing as OAT that does not impart wobble, and I have sure never seen a good player toss out an intentionally wobbly spike hyzer or roller etc. Besides this, the disc action needed for a backhand roller is the same as that needed for a hyzer flip, so the rolling "over/under" distinction makes no sense. The over/under distinction makes no sense anyway since there is no such thing as wobble free OAT. As soon as the wobble completes one cycle, it doesn't matter what wrist action it took to create it.

Some players believe that a (rhbb) hyzer flip is performed by rolling the wrist over during release, essentially twisting the disc off its axis to create a hyzer to flat or clockwise corkscrewing flight. This is not true or even faintly logical. A hyzer flip may be performed by wobbling the crud out of an overstable disc (often done with incorrigibly bad sidearms) but no one with any choice in the matter wants to throw this way.

 

[armiller]

Like most new players, you're not getting drivers (Leopard and Teebird) up to speed yet. Even though Leos are the de facto beginner drivers, Leos in premium plastic can still be doggedly stable if you're a greenhorn. There is a longstanding tradition of learning how to throw with putters and mids first and then graduating to drivers. I think FW drivers are good to learn with though because they teach you how to keep the nose down better whereas mids and putters are less nose angle sensitive. Controlling nose angle plagues noobs.

The arm speed and nose angle things are all important. The nose angle thing in particular is why I think it's important for beginners to start throwing not just putters and slower mids, but also faster mids and slower fairways (6-7 range especially).

The point the OP is making about the Gstar Leopard is a good learning point. Infinite rates a Leopard as 6 5 -2 1. His DX Leopard could easily be 6 5 -3 0, and that fresh Gstar Leo could easily be 6 5 -1 2, even for >300' throwers. I have a Champ Leopard that took some beating before it got to that -1 2 stage, and I have "decent" form.

Part of the fun of disc golf is finding the different flights or different discs. Understanding that not all Leopards, or even all Leopards of the same weight and plastic, fly the same is an important concept.

 

[deyo7]

The Wombat is in GStar plastic and and I can easily turn it over.

The Leopard is in Gstar Plastic as well. I haven't really turned it over just gotten it straight with a mild left finish. But, I can also easily lose it straight left.

I
Speaking of a DX Leo, I have a brand new one that came in a starter pack. I've thrown it maybe 4 times total, no trees. That thing turns over so hard it seems non-useful at this point.

How do disc weights play into all of this? I assume that starter pack Leo is lower weight than the other discs (although the Teebird is about 165g, I think).

First check your grip and make sure disc is aligned to forearm, which will help prevent unintentional oat.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/articles/gripittoripit.shtml

https://youtu.be/xpyaFqgyZbU

Try playing around with Bratten's 2 finger grip to help re-orientate the disc into a better nose down position in the hand: https://youtu.be/pO5zH_jQYjQ

Unfortunately, it takes a painfully long time to understand how to throw nose down and it's a little more than just grip and nose orientation. If your Gstar Leopard hooks left prematurely is a sign that the disc is nose up. Fine disc to learn on... putters and mids, with their more blunt edges, are less susceptible to flight changes caused from nose up issue.

Eventually, you may be able to throw very flippy (understable) discs incredibly straight. More pure spin on the disc and one can really bomb what other amateurs would say, "oh that's way too flippy for me".

Practice throwing your Wombat and DX Leopard on a hyzer and getting them to flip up to flat. Throwing from hyzer is better on your body and key skill to learn in my opinion.

Enjoy discing, my friend.

 

[Horsman]

I'm not sure exactly what BD means here, but it's probably incorrect either way. While advanced players may manipulate nose angle to acheive particular flights, I have never seen any decent player throw with intentional OAT. There is no such thing as OAT that does not impart wobble, and I have sure never seen a good player toss out an intentionally wobbly spike hyzer or roller etc. Besides this, the disc action needed for a backhand roller is the same as that needed for a hyzer flip, so the rolling "over/under" distinction makes no sense. The over/under distinction makes no sense anyway since there is no such thing as wobble free OAT. As soon as the wobble completes one cycle, it doesn't matter what wrist action it took to create it.

Some players believe that a (rhbb) hyzer flip is performed by rolling the wrist over during release, essentially twisting the disc off its axis to create a hyzer to flat or clockwise corkscrewing flight. This is not true or even faintly logical. A hyzer flip may be performed by wobbling the crud out of an overstable disc (often done with incorrigibly bad sidearms) but no one with any choice in the matter wants to throw this way.

Im going to disagree with you. Intentional OAT is a real thing to me, or maybe what I perceive as intentional OAT is a real thing. Being able to know how to throw with good form is preferred but also knowing how to manipulate the disc with bad form is useful.

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

Here's the straight dope on these types of questions:

Terms like 'stable' (including under- & over-), like flight numbers, are a heuristic designed to give a general idea about a disc's performance - there's not much really 'hard or fast' about them, or as they say 'individual results will vary'. For example, a new destroyer is likely a meathook for any noob user, while a pro may actually milk many different lines out of one...

So it seems best not to get too hung up on a precise real world correspondence between a disc and a term or number (like the fellow who tries to closely match linear velocity in mph @ release to a flight number). You already mentioned the differences between examples of the same mold in different plastics...

That being said, my interpretation of 'stable' is a measure (heuristic) of how well a disc will hold a line before it fades or turns and usually applies best to the first ¾ of a given flight. On an historical note, once upon a time the average golfer in the community could easily overpower many of discs available, certainly the rounded shoulder ones, and he searched for more 'stable' discs so more power could be applied to them reliably. Thanks Innova...fwiw

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

I would add that YOUR understanding of 'stability' will be honed by experience. Just keep playing.