Understanding stability?

[Davos805]

You are on the right track, the only thing missing is speed. Lets take the Westside sword for example.

12/5/-.5/2

Lets just pretend that you have perfect form and can actually get this disc up to proper speed for a full 450 foot flight.

Now, introduce a 10mph headwind into the equation. The disc will act more understable and have a minimal fade at the end.

Now, introduce a 10mph tail wind. The disc will act more overstable and fade out sooner than the full flight, and probably more left than you intended.

Why? Because air speed is essential in the flight characteristics of the disc. Headwind acts like you threw it faster, and tailwind acts like you threw it slower. Also, understable discs tend to generate more lift, which helps in a tail wind. Overstable discs have trouble generating lift (the act of generating lift creates the tilt I discuss more on below).

If you throw your leopard into a strong headwind its going to turn over and possibly roll because the headwind acts like you throwing the disc faster than usual, and the turn is what happens during the high spin portion of the discs flight. The leopard reacts to airspeed by tipping the outside wing of the disc, imparting its own OAT type effect. Its not OAT, but from a physics standpoint, the disc is actually tipping to the right when thrown at "7" airspeed. Overstable discs dont tip, so they can handle more airspeed.

That is where the idea of throwing overstable discs into a headwind, and understable discs into a tailwind came from.

Final note. everyone is a little different. New players can consider an FD 7/5/-1/1 to be overstable, and the leopard 7/5/-2/2 to be stable. a -4 would likely wiggle a bit and provide an understable compliment to their bag.

I find the start with mids/putters advice to be bad advice, it never teaches you how to throw a driver. My advice is to buy a stack of dx leopards. Throw some putters in the field, make sure they are not anhyzer on release, now start tossing those leopards. You should be able to get a nice flex flight out to 280-320 before moving up to anything faster. If you are losing them right, grab the putters or mids again, and make sure you have a nice flat release. The putter wont mask a bad release, drivers will try to correct and can at times mask a bad release. Grab a Teebird so you have a similar speed disc to the leopard, this gives you a driver you can trust in a headwind. You can also power it down and finish hard left for those dog leg holes.

Good luck!

 

[Armus Patheticus]

Im going to disagree with you. Intentional OAT is a real thing to me, or maybe what I perceive as intentional OAT is a real thing. Being able to know how to throw with good form is preferred but also knowing how to manipulate the disc with bad form is useful.

I agree, knowing any and all ways to manipulate the flight is useful. But, perception and reality may not align. If you are intentionally throwing with wobble, then that's great, you're doing something I can't for sure. But if you think you're twisting the disc off axis in your hand to get that smooth hyzer-flip, then you simply don't understand what's happening.

 

[Rastnav]

You should be able to get a nice flex flight out to 280-320 before moving up to anything faster.

Sometime between now and the heat death of the universe ... give or take.

 

[Armus Patheticus]

Now, introduce a 10mph tail wind. The disc will act more overstable and fade out sooner than the full flight, and probably more left than you intended.

A straight tailwind will usually create less left movement, not more. This is especially true with beginners throwing nose up with a tailwind.

 

[GripEnemy]

I agree, knowing any and all ways to manipulate the flight is useful. But, perception and reality may not align. If you are intentionally throwing with wobble, then that's great, you're doing something I can't for sure. But if you think you're twisting the disc off axis in your hand to get that smooth hyzer-flip, then you simply don't understand what's happening.

I hate to speak for Horsman but I highly doubt he likes to wobble his sick hyzerflips. Sometimes you need a hyzerflip to late turn that will never fade at a certain height and distance, and when adding those two variables to your late-turn-that-never-fades sometimes it's easier to torque the disc a bit to aid the process. I also doubt he needs to torque a disc for a hyzerflip like you're saying, I know I don't. A torqued over flat/slight anhyzer 7+/10 Z Buzzz and a 5/10 D or X Buzzz anhyzer have rather different flights, even if general turn angle and trajectory are the same.

Flex shots with overstable molds? If you want a 10/10 Firebird to bite very hard at a very specific distance after turning over, a clean anhyzer doesn't always work best. Intentional OAT can aid in the turn and distance of the high speed portion (especially higher off the ground) reserving the inevitable fade until later in the flight. Try throwing a 10/10 Valkyrie or even Teebird flat or with some anhyzer (and clean form) and make the same shot...

Maybe you don't play in the woods but it can be quite the useful tool for those that do.

 

[Armus Patheticus]

I hate to speak for Horsman but I highly doubt he likes to wobble his sick hyzerflips. Sometimes you need a hyzerflip to late turn that will never fade at a certain height and distance, and when adding those two variables to your late-turn-that-never-fades sometimes it's easier to torque the disc a bit to aid the process. I also doubt he needs to torque a disc for a hyzerflip like you're saying, I know I don't. A torqued over flat/slight anhyzer 7+/10 Z Buzzz and a 5/10 D or X Buzzz anhyzer have rather different flights, even if general turn angle and trajectory are the same.

Flex shots with overstable molds? If you want a 10/10 Firebird to bite very hard at a very specific distance after turning over, a clean anhyzer doesn't always work best. Intentional OAT can aid in the turn and distance of the high speed portion (especially higher off the ground) reserving the inevitable fade until later in the flight. Try throwing a 10/10 Valkyrie or even Teebird flat or with some anhyzer (and clean form) and make the same shot...

Maybe you don't play in the woods but it can be quite the useful tool for those that do.

I only play in the woods. There is no such thing as a "torqued over" wobble-free shot that is any different from a plain anhyzer. That's all in your imagination sadly. Moreover, oat will increase initial turn but will also shorten the flight pattern, opposite of what you need for those late flip no fade shots. You sound like a lad who thinks the disc speeds up after you let go of it.

 

[Casey 1988]

My other advice look at the discs in the beginner packs and get the same discs on in case of Innova, a Leopard/ Leopard 3 only not in the package as the putter and sometimes the mid will often be too light for a person over age 10-12 especially the putter for putting as most people want 170-175 grams for a putter. Most of these sets the discs come in 150 to lower 160 class. So yeah there is a reason most of these discs come in the package. Also limit to not have discs above a 6 or slow 7 speed for the fastest discs in first year as often a beginer can't get those to speed or they muscle the discs causing soreness in body after a round. After that the player can use up to 9/10 maybe 11 speed if they can get the discs up to speed, to have the glide number right.

 

[GripEnemy]

I only play in the woods. There is no such thing as a "torqued over" wobble-free shot that is any different from a plain anhyzer. That's all in your imagination sadly. Moreover, oat will increase initial turn but will also shorten the flight pattern, opposite of what you need for those late flip no fade shots. You sound like a lad who thinks the disc speeds up after you let go of it.

I genuinely love this post.

You know ****all about throwing, but certainly know how to post on the internet.


Cheers bud.

 

[Armus Patheticus]

I genuinely love this post.

You know ****all about throwing, but certainly know how to post on the internet.


Cheers bud.

I know what I know, but am always eager to learn, so if you want to explain the facts to me I'd be honestly appreciative. I'm not scared of being wrong. In fact it's exciting. Sadly will not be able to engage in a timely bicker though. I have got to keep the road hot.

 

[Horsman]

I agree, knowing any and all ways to manipulate the flight is useful. But, perception and reality may not align. If you are intentionally throwing with wobble, then that's great, you're doing something I can't for sure. But if you think you're twisting the disc off axis in your hand to get that smooth hyzer-flip, then you simply don't understand what's happening.

Agreed but I dont know where you got your info about me. Where did I ever say that that is how you hyzer flip a disc. You also talk from a place of authority and expertise yet I havent seen any proof of knowledge or skill out of you. In the future Id appreciate it if you didnt speak lies about me.

 

[BrotherDave]

I'm not sure exactly what BD means here, but it's probably incorrect either way. While advanced players may manipulate nose angle to acheive particular flights, I have never seen any decent player throw with intentional OAT. There is no such thing as OAT that does not impart wobble, and I have sure never seen a good player toss out an intentionally wobbly spike hyzer or roller etc. Besides this, the disc action needed for a backhand roller is the same as that needed for a hyzer flip, so the rolling "over/under" distinction makes no sense. The over/under distinction makes no sense anyway since there is no such thing as wobble free OAT. As soon as the wobble completes one cycle, it doesn't matter what wrist action it took to create it.

Some players believe that a (rhbb) hyzer flip is performed by rolling the wrist over during release, essentially twisting the disc off its axis to create a hyzer to flat or clockwise corkscrewing flight. This is not true or even faintly logical. A hyzer flip may be performed by wobbling the crud out of an overstable disc (often done with incorrigibly bad sidearms) but no one with any choice in the matter wants to throw this way.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here but you probably could've used much fewer words to say nonsense. :|

All players throw with OAT. There are almost never any completely OAT-free throws. Just because you can't perceive any wobble doesn't mean that there isn't any. You can slo-mo just about every player and see some wobble right after it leaves their hand. The cleaner throws stabilize out of the wobble faster than the naked eye can see. If you have good arm speed and form, you can throw with OAT and not show hardly any wobble because the increased spin masks it.

 

[armiller]

I think I've typed it in some other thread, but I think we refer to two kinds of OAT, and both are helpful. They refer to different axes. 1) Related to the disc's axis, OAT is simple. Your throw/wrist imparts a torque to the disc that is not parallel to the disc's axis. Hence, off-axis torque, and this is wobble. This can be a simple grip issue, or can be a whole form issue.

2) Related to the axis of the swing plane, OAT is a little less simple but way more important to most throws and while learning to throw a disc. Strong-arming can impart torque like this, and so can all kinds of other "herky jerky" form issues. Strictly speaking, I don't think the physics of this concept actually work. Nevertheless, I think we can all identify with "torquing" a disc golf disc. It is definitely possible to do this without wobble, and I don't think that all "OAT#2" throws cause "OAT#1" or wobble. I also don't think that OAT#2 always involves wrist-rolling.

So in that sense, I agree that pros throw with "OAT" when throwing some rollers and some anhyzers and probably some other shots. However, they do it in a very controlled manner. If you thinking about it, the axis of the swing plane (i.e. the orientation of your core as you throw) will simply never get to the right angle to throw a backhand roller quite right. You're never going to be able to bend your back 45 degrees backwards so that your swing plane gets the disc to the anhyzer angle release that you want for a good roller. Hence, some last minute "torquing" of the throw is implemented, very effectively, by the pros. And yes, I'm thinking Nikko, and maybe Sexton, NOT the Eagle or McBeth sky rollers where they hyzer flip something.