What is the meaning of 'intentional'?

[AnttiM]

This happened in a local competition: another player in my group made a throw from a lie established by a thrown disc that later proved to be not his own, but mine. Before anyone noticed the misplay, he had already packed my disc into his bag and moved on. I was just wondering, whether or not the player should have been given two penalty strokes for interference. (We just gave him one for misplay.)

810.E says, "A player who intentionally interferes with a disc in any of the following ways receives two penalty throws: [...] Moving or obscuring a thrown disc or marker disc (other than in the process of identification, retrieval, marking, or as allowed by 810.H)."

Does 'intentionally' imply that the player is trying to cheat, or has some other malicious intent? Or does an intent to bag a disc that the player honestly, albeit negligently, thought was one of his own, also fulfill the intended criteria for 'intentionality'?

 

[R-Ogre]

Depends on what the meaning of the word is, is.

 

[JC17393]

This happened in a local competition: another player in my group made a throw from a lie established by a thrown disc that later proved to be not his own, but mine. Before anyone noticed the misplay, he had already packed my disc into his bag and moved on. I was just wondering, whether or not the player should have been given two penalty strokes for interference. (We just gave him one for misplay.)

810.E says, "A player who intentionally interferes with a disc in any of the following ways receives two penalty throws: [...] Moving or obscuring a thrown disc or marker disc (other than in the process of identification, retrieval, marking, or as allowed by 810.H)."

Does 'intentionally' imply that the player is trying to cheat, or has some other malicious intent? Or does an intent to bag a disc that the player honestly, albeit negligently, thought was one of his own, also fulfill the intended criteria for 'intentionality'?

So, if he played from your disc then picked it up and walked away with it, where did you play from?

If he picked up the disc believing it was his own, I don't think that qualifies as intentional interference. It really has nothing to do with having to have malicious or nefarious intent. It has to do with having full knowledge of what one is doing. If he picked the disc up knowing full well it was yours, one could argue he intentionally interfered even if it was an innocent mistake. But since he believed it was his own disc, then I think upon realizing the error, he would just replace the disc where it was so you can play on and he'd take a one-throw penalty for misplaying his own throw.

Now, if he picked up and no one realized it was yours until after the hole or even the round was complete, forcing you to take a lost disc penalty (because if it's in his bag, how else could you proceed?), he'd be penalized two throws for the misplay and you'd get to deduct two throws from your score for the mistaken lost disc call.

 

[AnttiM]

So, if he played from your disc then picked it up and walked away with it, where did you play from?

After the misplay had occurred, I walked up to the disc that I had thought was mine, until I got close enough to see that it wasn't. There were four discs in plain sight, and none of them was mine, so I asked if someone had my disc in their bag, and it turned out the other player had it. Then the whole group went back to the place where my disc had supposedly been originally, and we determined a new lie roughly on the same estimated position.

 

[JC17393]

After the misplay had occurred, I walked up to the disc that I had thought was mine, until I got close enough to see that it wasn't. There were four discs in plain sight, and none of them was mine, so I asked if someone had my disc in their bag, and it turned out the other player had it. Then the whole group went back to the place where my disc had supposedly been originally, and we determined a new lie roughly on the same estimated position.

Ah, makes sense.

I don't think an interference penalty is warranted on the other player. A misplay penalty for sure, but not interference.

 

[Motorpro]

Intentionally means that they knowingly and on purpose did it. In the case described it was obviously a mistake no intent...no interference penalty.

 

[cheesethin]

810 Interference

E. A player who intentionally interferes with a disc in any of the following ways receives two penalty throws:

1 Altering the course of a thrown disc (other than to prevent injury); or,

2 Moving or obscuring a thrown disc or marker disc (other than in the process of identification, retrieval, marking, or as allowed by 810.H).

The bolded part seems to rule out penalising the player. Mistakenly retrieving the wrong disc, should maker them double safe!

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[AnttiM]

So we might draw a conclusion: if something is done mistakenly or absent-mindedly, it is not intentional.

Now, if he picked up and no one realized it was yours until after the hole or even the round was complete, forcing you to take a lost disc penalty (because if it's in his bag, how else could you proceed?), he'd be penalized two throws for the misplay and you'd get to deduct two throws from your score for the mistaken lost disc call.

In that hole we had a drop zone for lost discs, so if I had aced it from there, would it have officially counted as a hole-in-one?

 

[_MTL_]

So we might draw a conclusion: if something is done mistakenly or absent-mindedly, it is not intentional.

Intent is extremely hard to prove unless it's deliberate.

 

[cheesethin]

Intent is extremely hard to prove unless it's deliberate.

Isn't all intent deliberate?

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[cydisc]

What is the meaning of 'deliberate'?

 

[peabody]

What is the meaning of "meaning"?
I think we should be asking what the "correct interpretation" of a specific pdga rule is as determined by the pdga sanctioning body.

 

[AnttiM]

I think we should be asking what the "correct interpretation" of a specific pdga rule is as determined by the pdga sanctioning body.

Well put.