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What's all this Par brouhaha?

Smells fishy

Newbie here with a par question.
all the courses I've played up here in the Great Northwet (Washington) have all par 3 and 4's and a couple of par 2's.
Question ~
What distance deserves a Par 5?

Hmmm....

  • drkstr's first word is "Newbie".
  • drkstr's 1st post is about par. Is this suss or what? "Newbie here with a par question." Why par, of all things, out of the blue?
  • 3 minutes later valkyrie chimes in
Valk, do you promise, on your honor, that you don't know drkstr?
Drkstr, do you promise, on your honor, that no one put you up to this?

Timg, can you please check drkstr's IP address? That would be conclusive.

This sure smells fishy to me. Someone might have been throwing too many salmon in Pike Place Market...
 
Last edited:
Hmmm....

  • drkstr's first word is "Newbie".
  • drkstr's 1st post is about par. Is this suss or what? "Newbie here with a par question." Why par out of the blue?
  • 3 minutes later valkyrie chimes in
Valk, do you promise, on your honor, that you don't know drkstr?
Drkstr, do you promise, on your honor, that no one put you up to this?

Timg, can you please check drkstr's IP address? That would be conclusive.

This sure smells fishy to me. Someone might have been throwing too many salmon in Pike Place Market...

Olorin, I give my word of honor ;)
 
Wait a minute. If close range is within 100 feet, then a Par 3 hole of 499 feet would expect me to throw a 399 foot drive.
You are correct... assuming Olorin's "Close Range Par" standard.

Not sure if this works unless you are a member of the Y! group, but you can d/l the "Close Range Par-Gold.pdf" document here:
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/DGResources/files/Par/

Is that what we want?
Depends on whether you believe in different Par values for different skill levels.

"Close Range Par" is based on the performance of a 1000-rated player. That 400' tee shot is what was decided that 2/3 of the 1000-rated players could average. A fairway throw is ~320' and close range is 100'.

My personal opinion is that I want to measure myself vs. The standard. I.e. set par for what a 1000-rated player would throw and I can compare my performance to that. Again, personal opinion, but I don't like the idea of having a different Par as skill levels increase. I want to know that as a REC player I shot +12, and when I improved to INT I was shooting +8, then my ADV game was sitting at +2.

The caveat to that is that the sanctioned event penalty for missed holes is based on Par. If you miss a hole your score is recorded as Par +4. Obviously if Par is set for what a 1000-rated player would score a significantly lowly rated player could potentially use that to their advantage on a particularly tough starting hole. But there's another clause in the rules of DQ'ing a player for attempting to circumvent the rules.

Man this topic never dies, does it. We really need a DGCR FAQ.

ERic
 
Welcome to the site drkstr! The par thing definitely causes a few skeptics to come out of the wood work :)

Regarding the topic, I haven't read through the other par threads since I honestly am not too interested in the topic but I came across this link not too long ago (which may have been posted in one of the previous threads).

http://pdga.com/files/documents/ParGuidelines.pdf
 
Gold Close Range Par

The following table gives the lengths of full power shots for each type of shot for Gold level.

Shot Lengths:
Drive Length 400
Fairway Throw 320
Close Range 100

Combining all of these throws gives the hole lengths for various pars…

The effective lengths for par-
Par 3 100-500
Par 4 501-820
Par 5 821-1140

For example, the base drive length is 400 ft., and the CR length is 100 ft. Therefore, the maximum effective length for a par 3 is a 400 ft. drive plus a 100 ft. close range shot, for a total of 500 ft.
 
Hmmm....
[...]
This sure smells fishy to me.

I checked the guy's registration date and he's been here a week. Just no posts so far.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/member.php?u=3073

Clearly the guy says he was motivated by the contest thread...

the thread you just posted is where I first saw the "contest" and was just curious as to what was going on (at first seeing it I thought I might win something :)

I actually thought I might have had the contest with this one:

It was a legit Par question posted by a noob... but that prompted me to go back and re-read Donovan's rules. Those say it has to be a thread started by a noob. But doesn't say the question has to come from a noob... and I got to thinking how much wiggle room there was... I mean some people have already tried to beat the system. So I wanted Donovan to shore up his rules and make sure the spirit/integrity of the contest was maintained.

ERic
 
Wait a minute. If close range is within 100 feet, then a Par 3 hole of 499 feet would expect me to throw a 399 foot drive. Is that what we want?

Yes. In my world par should be based on the play of an expert player of the highest caliber. That's a 1000 rated Gold level player.
 
Gold Close Range Par

Gold Close Range Par for Disc Golf

Par is calculated by the number of reasonable throws intended by the course designer for a first-class player to reach "close range" then take 2 throws to hole out.[FONT=&quot][1][/FONT] For men a "first class player" is a 1000 rated, Gold level player.

The average drive length for a 1000 PR player is used as the main guideline for calculating par. This drive length is a length that 2/3s of 1000 PR players can throw with an average drive.

Keep in mind that "effective length" is used instead of "actual length". "Effective length" takes into account the effect of elevation changes and forced lay ups.[FONT=&quot][2][/FONT] Forced lay-ups cause a shot to be shorter than the maximum distance; they can be caused by water carries, fairway bends such as L or S shapes, and severe doglegs. A forced lay-up is counted as one shot toward the basket. From that shot's landing zone the course designer will determine how many more shots, if any, are needed to reach close range, then add 2 to complete the hole.

Fairway throws, used on multi-throw holes, are 80% of the length of tee shots. The Fairway throw length is based on the reasoning that you lose approximately 20% of your driving distance when throwing from the fairway.

Close Range is the distance from which first-class players can get "up and down" in two throws approximately 90% of the time. It is much longer than the 10 meters used to define a disc golf putt. This is analogous to reaching the front edge of the green in traditional golf. Since disc golf holes usually take less than 2 putts to complete adding this close range component helps score averages to be closer to par.

Note that par is based on a "reasonable throw" along an intended flight path to a landing zone. One way to visualize this is to think of the flight path as a tube, with the shape of the intended flight path, extending from the tee to the landing zone. Everything inside of the tube is the intended flight path. Since foliage, obstacles, or OB are outside of the tube they have no direct effect on the disc. If a player hits a tree or goes OB, no matter how high the percentage of times it might happen, then it was not a throw that went in the intended flight path. If the fairways seem too narrow or the flight path unreasonable or there is too high a risk of going OB then these are design issues, not par issues.

Many holes are not designed for the best shots to be made at full power, though. A course designer can use narrow fairways, dense foliage, and nearby OB so that the smarter throw will be a shorter shot using a more accurate disc. In these cases the designer will determine reasonable throws that are intended to reach a landing zone that is shorter than that of the full power length. On these holes par is the number of shots to reach each landing zone until one gets to close range then add 2 to hole out.

[FONT=&quot][1][/FONT] There should also be a different standard developed for women because of physiological differences.

[FONT=&quot][2][/FONT] Elevation changes are accounted for by every 1 ft. of elevation change equal to 3 ft. of length. Uphill shots increase the effective length and downhill shots decrease it. Ex.- A 10 ft uphill elevation change adds 30 ft onto the effective length.
 
beating-a-dead-horse.gif
 
Hey Olorin or ERicJ,
is there a ladies par?
I know when I've played with girls in a group we've just given them a one stroke "handicap" on par.
 
Isn't that Michael Bolton from "Office Space" and someone just Photoshoped in a dead horse?

"'PC Load Letter?' What the f#@% does that mean?"
 
"Why should I change my name? He's the one that sucks."
 
Hey Olorin or ERicJ,
is there a ladies par?
I know when I've played with girls in a group we've just given them a one stroke "handicap" on par.

IMNSHO we should follow big brother TG and establish ladies par too. It's beyond the scope of my capacity, though. My life is overly full of my own quixotic quest to establish Gold CR Par.
 
I know when I've played with girls in a group we've just given them a one stroke "handicap" on par.

Anyone who's been around for a while will remember Lesli Herndon Todd. In her time one of the top 5 women DGers in the world, former U.S. Women's champion, world champ contender... I once had the great fortune of being paired with her in random doubles. Lets just say that she didn't need any special par. Try to guess who carried who in our round. (Hint: I was elated that we actually used one out of 18 of my drives.)
 
Anyone who's been around for a while will remember Lesli Herndon Todd. In her time one of the top 5 women DGers in the world, former U.S. Women's champion, world champ contender... I once had the great fortune of being paired with her in random doubles. Lets just say that she didn't need any special par. Try to guess who carried who in our round. (Hint: I was elated that we actually used one out of 18 of my drives.)

:) the girls I play with are no where near that good ... perhaps its best to just leave things as they are ...
 
IMNSHO we should follow big brother TG and establish ladies par too. It's beyond the scope of my capacity, though. My life is overly full of my own quixotic quest to establish Gold CR Par.
If you wanted to follow the same methodology for the women you'd based Women's Gold CR Par on the play of women rated ~925.

ERic
 
oh yeah... and: "I told those fudge packers I liked Michael Bolton's music!"
 

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