Who played when there were no Ams?

[DavidSauls]

I was hoping by now that someone would chime in and know the answer. Especially when I saw Houck posting.

I, too, am curious as to how we got on this track. And I don't know; the train was already on it when I began 25 years ago. Was it a PDGA decision from the start, as soon as they decided to have amateurs to pay them in plastic? Was it a bright idea from Innova, that the PDGA later adopted? Was it just fallout from starting with a pro division, and the practice of paying people; that an amateur division would also pay people.....sort of, in cash?

I lament it but won't lambast it; growth has been strong, and a lot of people seem to like it. But it is striking how different it is from most, if not all, other sports.

 

[johnrhouck]

What do I do with all this tin foil now?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_oFhUQ3Ex8

 

[johnrhouck]

World's Biggest gets forgotten, but that was a pretty pure promotional event. There wasn't a "tournament," you just got a disc, a mini and a shirt and played. When there was an award, it went to the person who brought the most new players out with them. We already mentioned that back then you rarely got a shirt at an event; World's Biggest shirts were the most common disc golf gear we had in my area. I used to put flyers up by the pool and get unsuspecting barefoot kids in swimming trunks to come back and frolf, it was a good time. Nobody mentions it anymore, but it was a cool event back in the day that was effective in its day. You should keep that on your resume.

Thanks for that reminder. World's Biggest was all about learning to enjoy this fun new sport.

And you guys always did a great job with that, so thanks again for that, too.

It's been amazing over the years to hear stories of players -- sometimes very accomplished players -- whose first DG experience was at their local World's Biggest.

 

[johnrhouck]

Was it a PDGA decision from the start, as soon as they decided to have amateurs to pay them in plastic? Was it a bright idea from Innova, that the PDGA later adopted? Was it just fallout from starting with a pro division, and the practice of paying people; that an amateur division would also pay people.....sort of, in cash?

How the payout structure started is a great question, and I'm sorry I don't remember. I certainly don't remember the creation of a second division being a big deal.

Here's what I do remember: very early on it was common practice (and conventional wisdom) to take some of the "profit" from the amateurs and use it to enhance the pro purse. Seemed like a great way to reward and attract the pros.

But some of the amateurs thought that was an unfair practice and put heat on TD's. For better or worse, many TD's, including me, wanted to keep the ams happy so that they would continue to play.

I also remember that at some point (probably at the request of the PDGA), the am payouts became deeper (all the way to 50%), so that more players would be rewarded and so that the top players wouldn't get to "rich" with merch. Paying the top guys less was meant to encourage them to move up to pro.

 

[rhatton1]

Fascinating read.

I always assumed it was manufacturer driven. What better way to shift some discs than get someone else to run tournaments and shift them for you? Am players are far more profitable to companies than pro players. Player packs are a great way of putting new discs in a players hand that might not ever try them otherwise. It sounds like I may be wrong on this though?

We've never really had payouts or player packs over here, I'm conflicted now about them. For the first 25 years of the sports history here we had one winner and a couple of others who would make up the top 5, the rest were just there for the social. Fortunately that one winner was a stand up guy that played for the love of the sport and felt it would be unfair (and potentially put players off coming) to just keep taking other peoples money. Also without an on the ground manufacturer, offering player packs didn't really create enough of a wholesale/retail differential to be worth the effort after shipping/import taxes/length in advance of ordering etc.

As such players don't yet expect a bribe to turn up and play in comps. Although the attitude is starting to creep in.

I'm now in the odd position of manufacturing discs locally so player packs make sense and yet not really wanting to go down that route as it doesn't strike me as a good direction for the sport.

One of our biggest and most popular events over the last 10 years has been a team matchplay event with no prizes just bragging rights.

I'd love to see more focus on the PDGA supporting bigger am focused events (B and A tier) with less/no payout requirements in future, let the market decide if it wants them, I think it probably does.

 

[DavidSauls]

How the payout structure started is a great question, and I'm sorry I don't remember. I certainly don't remember the creation of a second division being a big deal.

Here's what I do remember: very early on it was common practice (and conventional wisdom) to take some of the "profit" from the amateurs and use it to enhance the pro purse. Seemed like a great way to reward and attract the pros.

But some of the amateurs thought that was an unfair practice and put heat on TD's. For better or worse, many TD's, including me, wanted to keep the ams happy so that they would continue to play.

I also remember that at some point (probably at the request of the PDGA), the am payouts became deeper (all the way to 50%), so that more players would be rewarded and so that the top players wouldn't get to "rich" with merch. Paying the top guys less was meant to encourage them to move up to pro.

Thanks. I remember the payouts becoming deeper; when I began in the mid-90s it was the top 30-35%, and a few years after went to 50%.

The Ams feeling it unfair to simply be funding the pros certainly sounds like a likely contributor to the change.

 

[dorseymatt]

Anyone have any guesses as to what percentage of sold/moved discs are via players packs and am payouts, vs retail?

I'm skeptical that it was an accident it got this way.

How dependent on this system are the disc manufacturers to move their product?

My guess: significantly.

 

[Motorpro]

All this talk about amatures not playing for the fun of the game is silly. You people talk like the only amatures are designated that by the gods of the PDGA. Go to the local parks any day there is no event going on and you find real Am's playing for the fun of the game. Some play alone to beat the course. Some play with there friends for bragging rights. Some will play with anyone they run into for the fun of it. I have met players who could give some pros a run for their money but mostly people like me who will most likely never throw past 300' But they play because they love it. Sure I like to play in an event once in a while but those rounds with friends or strangers can be just as exiting and fun.

 

[Motorpro]

By the way no one played before there were amatures......amatures invented the game! Later some became pros.

 

[DavidSauls]

Of course, the discussion isn't about amateurs playing (casually). It's about amateur divisions in organized competition (specifically, PDGA-sanctioned events).

 

[JC17393]

Anyone have any guesses as to what percentage of sold/moved discs are via players packs and am payouts, vs retail?

I'm skeptical that it was an accident it got this way.

How dependent on this system are the disc manufacturers to move their product?

My guess: significantly.

In the early days, before the internet in particular, I'd guess a lot more discs were sold for the purposes of player packs and prizes than by any other means. It's not like there were a lot of brick and mortar stores where one could go buy a disc, so players usually had two ways to get new discs: mail order or from their local connection (club, TD, player selling out of his trunk, etc).

These days, I'd imagine more discs are moved via normal retail outlets than through tournaments. Between big box stores that carry discs and all the online options, not to mention the local brick and mortars, there have to be more sales on that side than via am payouts.

Which is probably why the "true amateur" model has met less resistance in the last few years than it might have 15-20 years ago.

 

[dorseymatt]

In the early days, before the internet in particular, I'd guess a lot more discs were sold for the purposes of player packs and prizes than by any other means. It's not like there were a lot of brick and mortar stores where one could go buy a disc, so players usually had two ways to get new discs: mail order or from their local connection (club, TD, player selling out of his trunk, etc).

These days, I'd imagine more discs are moved via normal retail outlets than through tournaments. Between big box stores that carry discs and all the online options, not to mention the local brick and mortars, there have to be more sales on that side than via am payouts.

Which is probably why the "true amateur" model has met less resistance in the last few years than it might have 15-20 years ago.

Good point. Even if it accounts now for (only) 20% of moved product, if the system significantly changed, that could be a serious problem for manufacturers.

 

[Jouni]

I would happily pay less for amateur division and let that money go to TD, and get nothing in return expect fun and excitement about what my rounds will be rated this time.

 

[lyleoross]

All this talk about amatures not playing for the fun of the game is silly. You people talk like the only amatures are designated that by the gods of the PDGA. Go to the local parks any day there is no event going on and you find real Am's playing for the fun of the game. Some play alone to beat the course. Some play with there friends for bragging rights. Some will play with anyone they run into for the fun of it. I have met players who could give some pros a run for their money but mostly people like me who will most likely never throw past 300' But they play because they love it. Sure I like to play in an event once in a while but those rounds with friends or strangers can be just as exiting and fun.

I don't think anyone is actually saying that. Indeed, it seemed to me that Biscoe wanted to know why we went down this path since it's fairly uncommon. JH's comments, to me. show that bribing ams to play wasn't even in the equation.

I'd think a discussion about ending the process and whether we're too inculcated in the gift culture would be interesting. But, it's already happened on other threads.

 

[lyleoross]

As an aside, this is one of the more interesting discussions I've read in some time. Thanks for raising it Biscoe, and thanks to John for enlightenment.

I always try and get this message out. When I first started playing in Texas, the universal name all the old guy's mentioned was John's. His hard work, generosity, and passion were admired. If we all took his approach the world would be a better place.

 

[Jay Dub]

I loved the "World's Biggest". It always did get new players out. Thanks, John! I didn't know that was you who started it.

And I agree, I've truly enjoyed reading this thread.

 

[TAFL]

Here's what I do remember: very early on it was common practice (and conventional wisdom) to take some of the "profit" from the amateurs and use it to enhance the pro purse. Seemed like a great way to reward and attract the pros.

But some of the amateurs thought that was an unfair practice and put heat on TD's. For better or worse, many TD's, including me, wanted to keep the ams happy so that they would continue to play.

This is exactly why I quit playing in tourneys. I didn't mind if the TD made money off my entry because the TD is putting in a lot of work. When the entry fees for ams got boosted so the pro payout was higher, I called it quits. I wasn't playing with the pros nor was I able to watch the pros and I wasn't going to pay extra just to be in the same park with them nor pay extra just so they could take home more money. I wasn't going to be used to prop up the pro division.

It was also about this time that am winners started getting large piles of loot. Instead of a couple of discs, a winner got a stack of discs. I wasn't interested in going down that road, either, despite being able to place well. It appeared that the days of showing up to play for fun and support TDs was going away.

 

[TAFL]

All this talk about amatures not playing for the fun of the game is silly.

The context of the discussion is that of attending tournaments. Nobody is speaking of casual play outside tourneys.

 

[johnrhouck]

In the early days, before the internet in particular, I'd guess a lot more discs were sold for the purposes of player packs and prizes than by any other means.

I'm not so sure about that. As a guy who sold discs out of his trunk in the mid-'80's and then to stores in Austin by maybe the late '80's, I think Motopro has actually pointed us in the direction of the answer to the sales questions.

Players who entered tournaments and finished well may have gotten a good percentage of their personal discs from tournaments, but those who rarely placed wouldn't have gotten much -- as I recall player packages were not a big deal early on. And of course the overwhelming majority of players never entered tournaments, and they all had discs. So I'd educatedly guess that the great majority of discs came from local people at the course, clubs, mail order, and forward-thinking stores.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Why is it automatically a scam if the entry isn't returned in tangible (as in merchandise) value? What if 80% of the entry went toward compensating tournament staff? If there's a starter on tee 1 and course officials every three holes and a manned snack cart at the turn, are those guys supposed to be out there all day out of the goodness of their heart?

I agree. That's what I am asking him. Those are benefits to the player. If 60-125 is paying for that, there you go.