Wrong basket played - you be the TD

[Doofenshmirtz]

Here is a situation that occurred on my home course recently:

The hole: This is a downhill hole that has three basket positions. The tee is elevated and the baskets are all in a flat area. So the tee elevation helps most on the closest baskets. The close basket is a 400' par 3 which is pretty easy to reach due to the elevated tee. The second basket position is 500' and is a difficult, but not impossible 2. The third basket, the long position, is approximately 900 feet and is a difficult 5 for most due to the OB areas and obstacles that do not come into play for the shorter basket positions.

The division was Advanced Grandmasters. Most of whom will have a respectable chance at a 2 for the short position and most of whom will have a difficult time getting a 5 in the long position.

At the start of the tournament the TD clearly indicated that all advanced and open divisions were to play to the basket in the long position. Everyone else was to play to the basket in the short position.

Because of the number of players in different divisions, one Advanced Grandmaster player played in a group with two players who were playing to the basket in the short position. You guessed it, the Adv. GM player played to the short basket too, and scored a 3. The mistake was discovered after the cards were turned in. The average score for the other players in his division, who played to the correct basket, was more than 5.

What is your call?

 

[brutalbrutus]

He gets a 2 throw penalty, unless it is determined he did it intentionally to gain an advantage...

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

He gets a 2 throw penalty, unless it is determined he did it intentionally to gain an advantage...

And gets and advantage by operation of the rule?

 

[brutalbrutus]

Who says it was an advantage? Maybe he gets a 4 if he plays the hole correctly. The point behind the rule is to determine if it was intentional. If it was, he gets DQ'd. If it wasn't, he gets a 2 throw penalty. Say it was reversed and he threw to the long instead of the short. He doesn't get a break because the average score for his division was a 3...

Besides he shouldnt get extra punished for a situation that should never have happened. A TD should never put people in a group that are playing different layouts. If he has no other choice then he should have made the ADV GMs play the short layout.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Relevant section from the book.

811 Misplay
Last updated: Saturday, January 13, 2018 - 13:26
________________________________________
A. It is the responsibility of the player to play the course correctly. Before play begins, players are expected to attend the players' meeting in order to learn about any special conditions that may exist on the course, including extra holes, alternate teeing areas, alternate hole placements, out-of-bounds areas, mandatories, and drop zones.
B. A misplay has occurred if the player has failed to complete every hole on the course correctly and in the proper order, or has played from an incorrect lie for any throw.
C. If a misplay is discovered after the scorecard has been turned in, the player receives two penalty throws.
D. A misplay is not a stance violation, nor is it a practice throw.
E. A player who deliberately misplays the course to gain competitive advantage may be disqualified in accordance with Section 3.03 of the Competition Manual.
F. Types of misplay:
1. Incorrect Lie. The player has played from a lie that is not the correct lie. For example, the player has:
A. Teed off from a teeing area that is not the correct teeing area for the current hole; or,
B. Thrown from a lie other than that established by the thrown disc; or,
C. Played an out-of-bounds disc as if it were in-bounds; or,
D. Thrown from a lie established by a previous throw which missed a mandatory; or,
E. Played a disc in a relief area as if it were not in a relief area.
If no subsequent throws have been made after the misplayed throw, that throw is disregarded. The player plays from the correct lie and receives one penalty throw for the misplay. If an additional throw has been made after the misplayed throw, the player continues play and receives two penalty throws for the misplay.
2. Wrong Target. The player has completed play on a target that is not the correct target for the hole being played. If no subsequent throw has been made, play continues from the resulting lie. If the target is a basket target, then the disc is above the playing surface and play proceeds according to 805.01.C. If the player has teed off on the next hole, two penalty throws are added to the score for the misplayed hole.
3. Failure to Complete a Hole. The player has finished the round or thrown on a hole without having completed a previous hole. The score for the misplayed hole is the number of throws made, plus one for completing the hole, plus two penalty throws for the misplay. Intentionally failing to complete a hole constitutes withdrawal from competition.
4. Non-Sequential Play. The player has completed play on a hole in the wrong order. The player continues to play the course in its proper order. Regardless of the number of holes played in the wrong order during the round, a total of two penalty throws is added to the player's total score for the misplay. The score for any completed hole stands.
5. Missed Hole Due to Late Arrival or Absence. If a player is not present to throw when they are next in the throwing order, and remains absent for at least 30 seconds, the player does not make any more throws on the hole. The player's score for the hole is par plus four. Par is the score that an expert disc golfer would be expected to make on a given hole with errorless play under ordinary weather conditions, as determined by the Director. See Section 1.05.B of the Competition Manual for determining late arrival.
6. Omitted Hole. The round has been completed, and the player has neglected to play one or more holes. The player receives a score of par plus four for each unplayed hole.
7. Incorrect Hole. The player has completed a hole that is not part of the course for that round, in place of a hole that is part of the course for the round. Two penalty throws are added to the player's score for the hole.
8. Extra Hole. The player has completed a hole that is not part of the course for that round. Two penalty throws are added to the player's total score. Throws made on the extra hole are not counted.
9. Wrong Starting Hole or Group. The player has begun play on a hole or in a group other than the one to which they were assigned. The player continues play, and two throws are added to the player's score for the first hole played.

I guess they consider the hole as completed, even though it wasn't played to the correct target, because they distinguish between Wrong Target, and Failure to Complete a Hole.

 

[MarkDSM]

A TD should never put people in a group that are playing different layouts. If he has no other choice then he should have made the ADV GMs play the short layout.

This big time. In my relatively little experience this is poison and a Definite distraction in a flight.

 

[Steve West]

Relevant section from the book.

I guess they consider the hole as completed, even though it wasn't played to the correct target, because they distinguish between Wrong Target, and Failure to Complete a Hole.

That's the reason it says "completed play" and not "completed the hole". The rule addresses what to do when the player thinks they are done but they aren't because it was the wrong target.

 

[jjtwinnova]

Two stroke penalty, but DQ'ed if it was on purpose.

However, I doubt it was on purpose. I wasn't there for the Player's Meeting, but if I were an Advanced Grandmasters player and heard all Pros and Advanced players play to the long basket, I wouldn't be thinking I was an Advanced Player, as in my experience the Advanced Grandmasters division is no where near the caliber of players in the normal Advanced Division, especially if they aren't playing Pro Masters.

 

[JeremyKShort]

As other pointed out, the two stroke penalty would be the way to handle it. Unless he said something about trying to cheat it I wouldn't DQ him, as that would be very difficult to prove, and likely wasn't the case.

I'd try to not mix players that are playing different layouts on the same card. I've only done it once, when I had only two juniors . I put them with some rec players, but made it very clear that they weren't throwing across the pond on one of the holes, but that all of the rec players were. The juniors were about 12, so I didn't want them having to do the throw across the water. I specifically told the rec players on their card that they were playing long on that hole, but the juniors could throw short. We didn't have a problem there, but I had to grab that whole card and single them out and discuss it ahead of time.

Once in an unsanctioned tournament, I had all the ladies on one card. They all decided they were playing that hole from the short tee. Since it was the entire division, and was unsanctioned anyway, I just let it slide. We use the short tee as a drop zone, so now they could just throw for three from the short tee/DZ and it's legal.

 

[Discette]

Two stroke penalty, but DQ'ed if it was on purpose.

However, I doubt it was on purpose. I wasn't there for the Player's Meeting, but if I were an Advanced Grandmasters player and heard all Pros and Advanced players play to the long basket, I wouldn't be thinking I was an Advanced Player, as in my experience the Advanced Grandmasters division is no where near the caliber of players in the normal Advanced Division, especially if they aren't playing Pro Masters.

Hey kid, just because you think Grandmasters are not advanced in skill, doesn't mean they are not playing in Advanced or Pro divisions. Those are the only Grandmaster divisions offered as Intermediate or Rec Grandmasters divisions do not exist at PDGA events.

 

[biscoe]

Hey kid, just because you think Grandmasters are not advanced in skill, doesn't mean they are not playing in Advanced or Pro divisions. Those are the only Grandmaster divisions offered as Intermediate or Rec Grandmasters divisions do not exist at PDGA events.

Actually the PDGA no longer defines them as advanced divisions. MA50= Men's Amateur 50. Much more fitting IMO.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Actually the PDGA no longer defines them as advanced divisions. MA50= Men's Amateur 50. Much more fitting IMO.

Amateur Master 50+ so at least the "Master" label is still included and becomes genderless as a result.

 

[Discette]

Actually the PDGA no longer defines them as advanced divisions. MA50= Men's Amateur 50. Much more fitting IMO.

Amateur Master 50+ so at least the "Master" label is still included and becomes genderless as a result.

The PDGA will want to update the way it is displayed on the PDGA event pages:
https://www.pdga.com/tour/event/34400

 

[jjtwinnova]

Hey kid, just because you think Grandmasters are not advanced in skill, doesn't mean they are not playing in Advanced or Pro divisions. Those are the only Grandmaster divisions offered as Intermediate or Rec Grandmasters divisions do not exist at PDGA events.

What I said was not meant to be disrespectful, and I apologize. I was out of line.

 

[JC17393]

The PDGA will want to update the way it is displayed on the PDGA event pages:
https://www.pdga.com/tour/event/34400

If I were to guess, the TD entered the division as MG1 rather than with the new code MA50, so the old term is displayed.

I have two MA60 players pre-registered from my B-tier in June, and they display as being in Amateur Masters 60+ rather than Advanced Senior Grandmasters.

 

[TAFL]

Hey kid, just because you think Grandmasters are not advanced in skill, doesn't mean they are not playing in Advanced or Pro divisions. Those are the only Grandmaster divisions offered as Intermediate or Rec Grandmasters divisions do not exist at PDGA events.

He wishes he had the experience--and skill that comes with it--of many of those players. I know that I'm not an intermediate or rec player, should I enter a tournament, and I suspect the other fogeys playing also know what their division is and won't mistake themselves for rec players. Sheesh.

 

[jjtwinnova]

He wishes he had the experience--and skill that comes with it--of many of those players. I know that I'm not an intermediate or rec player, should I enter a tournament, and I suspect the other fogeys playing also know what their division is and won't mistake themselves for rec players. Sheesh.

I'm sorry that what I said was taken the wrong way. It was not meant to hurt feelings.

 

[JoakimBL]

Back to the rules question part instead of petty division talk:

I think, if at all possible, depending on when the mistake was caught, I would have the player replay the hole correctly. I think that is the most fair solution. Even though the rule is pretty clear, that it is just a 2 throw penalty, the rule doesn't really take into account this specific situation.

 

[JC17393]

Back to the rules question part instead of petty division talk:

I think, if at all possible, depending on when the mistake was caught, I would have the player replay the hole correctly. I think that is the most fair solution. Even though the rule is pretty clear, that it is just a 2 throw penalty, the rule doesn't really take into account this specific situation.

How does the rule not take into account this situation?

The directive was that "Advanced divisions" play to the long position, and an Advanced Grandmasters player holed out on the short position. The error was discovered after the round was over. The rule is pretty clear cut: two throw misplay penalty for holing out on the wrong target.

Really the only argument that this wasn't the fault of the player is the semantic one about the name of the division ("advanced" vs "amateur"). And if this were later in the year rather than two weeks into using the new divisional nomenclature, maybe it's a strong argument. But we've barely had a chance to get used to the new names...I don't see this player having been confused by the use of "advanced".

Also, the OP doesn't really specify that this happened after the first of the year, so it may well have been the appropriate reference to call the division Advanced Grandmaster rather than Amateur Masters 50+, which renders that argument moot.

 

[DavidSauls]

And gets and advantage by operation of the rule?

It's a somewhat unusual situation where the difference in layouts on a given hole would be worth 2 strokes or more. The rule doesn't really anticipate that. So, yes, he might gain an advantage with the error.

(We have a hole on our course that would potentially have that effect---but only in casual play, as we don't have both layouts being played at the same time during tournaments, and we remove or bag the wrong basket).