Your most recent provisional?

[Steve West]

Tell me about a provisional throw you made (or were in a group with). Why was it taken? What was the result?

 

[DavidSauls]

My throw barely made it over the water, or perhaps just failed to, and the, um, grounds crew having been slack this summer, there was tall grass on the water's edge.

Provisional on that hole is a tee about 50' shorter, and at a somewhat safer angle.

As it turned out, my drive was inbounds, so I could pick up the provisional.

 

[JC17393]

Threw a drive from an elevated tee to a blind basket. Based on the flight path of the disc, it was likely that it flew over the basket and may have come to rest beyond a chainlink fence about 40 feet behind the basket. Two questions arose: 1) was over the fence OB and 2) was the short tee on the hole supposed to be a drop zone?

The tee sign on the hole was unfortunately damaged by vandals and useless to us. On the other holes that had short tees (just 4-5 holes), they served as a drop zone for OB throws off the tee (all water OB). Other OB areas on the course were played with regular rules (last in-bounds or re-throw). The scorecard was unclear as well (just generic OB descriptions like water, pavement, riprap rock on the dam, etc but no mention of fences).

I ended up throwing a provisional from the drop zone as we passed (in case it was required). Then upon finding the disc just beyond the fence, I played a provisional from the disc itself (in case it was in bounds) and from the basket side of the fence (in case it was OB and playing last in-bounds was allowed). I recorded a 5 from the drop zone (w/penalty), a 3 from the disc itself, and a 4 from the fence (w/penalty).

Turned out the fence was OB and the drop zone was the required play, so I officially carded a 5 on the hole.

 

[DavidSauls]

We have a hole at Stoney Hill that sees a lot of provisionals. It's a steep, straight downhill run at the basket, bordered on either side by dense vegetation, so we made it an island hole. You really wouldn't want to play out of that stuff, anyway. The dropzone is halfway down the hill. While you can follow good shots clearly, borderline shots are hard to tell whether they went in or out, and nobody wants to walk back up the hill to the drop zone. So a lot of provisionals are taken; usually, the provisional ends up being used.

 

[biscoe]

My throw barely made it over the water, or perhaps just failed to, and the, um, grounds crew having been slack this summer, there was tall grass on the water's edge.

As it turned out, my drive was inbounds, so I could pick up the provisional.

pretty much this, except mine was OB so I played out the provisional.

 

[krupicka]

I ended up throwing a provisional from the drop zone as we passed (in case it was required). Then upon finding the disc just beyond the fence, I played a provisional from the disc itself (in case it was in bounds) and from the basket side of the fence (in case it was OB and playing last in-bounds was allowed).

FWIW There's some discussion about only allowing one provisional sequence on a hole in the future.

 

[_MTL_]

Not my most recent or even mine, but the craziest provisional story I've been a part of.

One of my pet peeves as a TD is when someone plays a provisional and feels that the score is part of the story. My job as the TD isn't to tell you the score, it's to tell you the ruling of the two ways the hole played out and then you calculate the score based on that.

A friend of mine is aware of that and started the story like this...

"I know you hate this, but I had a provisional and you must hear the scores. I either got a 2, a 7 or a 12."

The night before, the course received about 7 inches of rain and a lake, which has a large drop off and is never marked due to the clear drop off, had risen for the first time in about 15 years above this drop off. Knowing the line would not be consistent, I ran and marked the area with flags the morning of. The players sheet made no mention of flags, rather water.

As the day progressed, the water line dropped to a normal area....

So the player throws his tee shot and lands in the small area between the flagged area and water. Looking at his player sheet, which doesn't mention flags, he is confused. He decided to play a provisional.

His shot never cleared the flags, so he correctly throws from the drop zone. This shot clearly goes OB. He re-throws and makes it across.

He then putts out the original drive and makes it for a 2.

He then misses his putt from the provisional throw and it lands in an area where the water had risen above the flags. Unsure of how that would play out, he then takes another provisional. He makes the putt as if it were IB for a 7.

Not putting for an 8 on the drop, he proceeds to 4 putt and takes a 12.

So, as he said, he got a 2, 7 or a 12.

Luckily, it was only a 7.

 

[Steve West]

...
So, as he said, he got a 2, 7 or a 12.

Luckily, it was only a 7.

So, did you let him call the throw between the flags and water as IB, because there was no mention of flags?

 

[_MTL_]

So, did you let him call the throw between the flags and water as IB, because there was no mention of flags?

I mentioned in the players meeting the need for the rules / course change due to conditions. So it was an easy call, just a funny story.

 

[New013]

Played a tourney on a golf course. There was a bench from the golf course moved up against a cart path on like a 800ft hole that doglegged left. You played up 350ft short of an OB green, the hole then doglegs left with a 200' water carry if you're in good position with about 400' from the layup zone.

I landed under the bench which was under two trees right of the green and could not take a legal stance in line with the basket without standing on the OB cart path.

We determined I had to stand on the bench and then take a provisional moving the bench.

I stood on it pitched out short of the green and had about 450' to the basket. With my provisional I moved the bench and threw out of the trees over the water with about 150' to go.

On my third shot I landed about 30' right of the basket. Laid up my third shot from my provisional for an easy 4. Then I sank my 30' putt and also got a 4 so we marked it a 4 and moved on.

 

[araytx]

FWIW There's some discussion about only allowing one provisional sequence on a hole in the future.

Talk??? from the RC??

I know and understand the reasons why; however, in JC's case, he properly utilized both provisionals. I know the situation they are trying to prevent -- the player who takes a throw, then a provisional and chooses neither. I also agree that is problematic.

But in JC's case they were two separate progressions Original throw, then provisional.

Played both the original all the way to hole out, and then on the provisional they weren't sure what the ruling was, so they properly played it out both ways -- both the first called provisional, and then the provisional of the provisional series. ANd since he was throwing 2 on one shot, three on one shot, and five on another shot, I wouldn't see the problem. Problems is when the player wants to play three from one provisional and also three from another throw -- or neither.

 

[threej21]

I played a 2 round tournament semi-blind, having only been able to throw a few of the holes prior to the start. There was a downhill hole with slight right finish that I hadn't played yet, and really wasn't sure how to best attack the hole. It was between a turnover Roc shot or a thumber. After I threw the Roc shot, I really wanted to try out the thumber line also in preparation for the next round. Being this hole was no where near parking or tourney central, I knew I likely would not make it there between rounds to try it. And being that my first Roc shot, though a good shot, was not visible from the tee. I opted to take a provisional "in case my disc was lost", and re-teed with the thumber shot. They both ended up inside the circle, so I putted from the Roc and got my birdie. Though the thumber was the better play, so I birdied it with the thumber in the 2nd round.

 

[tonyroberts]

^^ I don't see any reason for a provisional in this case. Not being visible from the tee doesn't qualify as a reason for a provisional. I think you took a practice throw.

 

[bwgort]

I played a 2 round tournament semi-blind, having only been able to throw a few of the holes prior to the start. There was a downhill hole with slight right finish that I hadn't played yet, and really wasn't sure how to best attack the hole. It was between a turnover Roc shot or a thumber. After I threw the Roc shot, I really wanted to try out the thumber line also in preparation for the next round. Being this hole was no where near parking or tourney central, I knew I likely would not make it there between rounds to try it. And being that my first Roc shot, though a good shot, was not visible from the tee. I opted to take a provisional "in case my disc was lost", and re-teed with the thumber shot. They both ended up inside the circle, so I putted from the Roc and got my birdie. Though the thumber was the better play, so I birdied it with the thumber in the 2nd round.

Did the Majority of your group allow you to do this?

 

[Steve West]

...I know the situation they are trying to prevent -- the player who takes a throw, then a provisional and chooses neither....

This happens? How? When? Does the player think it's legal?

 

[threej21]

^^ I don't see any reason for a provisional in this case. Not being visible from the tee doesn't qualify as a reason for a provisional. I think you took a practice throw.

Really, cause I have seen one of the top players in the world do exactly that, on film....and no one batted an eye at it. Pretty sure there is nothing in the rules that prevents one from doing it.
Don't remember the tourney, but one of the Colorado courses with a "top of the world" type throw. Eagle McMahon first CRUSHED his tee shot as hard as he possibly could, with the hopes of parking said "top of the world" hole. He then grabs his mid range or something, and declares a provisional in case his disc is lost and in respect to pace of play, and throws a much much safer drive off the tee. If it is reasonable (subjective) to believe ones tee shot may be lost, and it would take too much time (subjective) to first go look for the drive and then have to walk back to the tee if it was in fact lost, it seems to be completely in the rules to take a provisional in this case. The only thing I see preventing it, is if your original drive is in plain view from the tee box.

Did the Majority of your group allow you to do this?

We didn't take a vote, but no one had issue with it. Maybe a couple raised eyebrows, but I don't believe our rules puts them in a place to penalize me for such an action, due to the subjectiveness surrounding the reasonable possibility the disc could be lost, and the possible effect on pace of play if one had to return to the teebox to retee.

 

[JC17393]

We didn't take a vote, but no one had issue with it. Maybe a couple raised eyebrows, but I don't believe our rules puts them in a place to penalize me for such an action, due to the subjectiveness surrounding the reasonable possibility the disc could be lost, and the possible effect on pace of play if one had to return to the teebox to retee.

First, because a "top player" does something doesn't necessarily make it legal or a valid use of a rule. So because Eagle did it once doesn't really justify anything.

Second, I think it was at best a questionable application of the rule. There is absolutely something in the rules that prevents it and that is the distinction between a provisional throw and a practice throw. You admit that you wanted to throw the second shot not "in case the first was lost" (that was just a convenient excuse/justification) but because you wanted to test out a second approach to the hole. That's not the time to be testing things out. The time for that is called practice...before or between rounds specifically. The hole's location relative to the parking lot and tournament central is irrelevant. If you don't want to make the hike out there before the round or between rounds, you don't get to practice it during the round.

You got away with it because your group was either ignorant of or ambivalent toward the rules of play. Unless the hole was one in which there was a genuine concern for loss of disc with thick schule or water near the basket or the shot was extremely errant, I wouldn't have allowed the provisional there.

Someone in the group had to be familiar enough with the hole to know your shot was a good one and possibly parked. If there was a chance it was inside the circle and lost, they'd surely know. At least well enough to suggest sending a spotter to watch all the drives beforehand. I mean, you threw a turnover Roc shot, it couldn't be so long of a hole that it wouldn't be worth walking up to spot. It arguably wasn't long enough to actually save all that much time. At least the top of the world hole has a far lengthier walk to get to/from the tee than the path the discs take.

 

[tonyroberts]

We didn't take a vote, but no one had issue with it. Maybe a couple raised eyebrows, but I don't believe our rules puts them in a place to penalize me for such an action, due to the subjectiveness surrounding the reasonable possibility the disc could be lost, and the possible effect on pace of play if one had to return to the teebox to retee.

Well, perhaps you should have taken a vote. It's up to the group to decide whether a provisional is appropriate. You must announce your throw as a provisional and get the group to go along with is indicated in Rule 804.06 B:

Provisional throws are appropriate in the following circumstances:

To save time. A player may declare a provisional throw any time:
-- The status of a disc cannot readily be determined; and,
-- The majority of the group agrees that playing a provisional throw may save time; and,
-- The original throw may be out-of-bounds, may be lost, or may have missed a mandatory.

The thrower shall complete the hole from whichever of the two throws is deemed by the group or an official to have resulted in the correct lie.

In your original post, you said you thought your first shot (Roc) was good, but you couldn't see it. It turned out to be in the circle. Did you really think there was a strong possibility that the disc was lost? You also admitted that you really wanted to practice the hole. I still feel this was an inappropriate time and place for a provisional.

 

[threej21]

First, because a "top player" does something doesn't necessarily make it legal or a valid use of a rule. So because Eagle did it once doesn't really justify anything.

Second, I think it was at best a questionable application of the rule. There is absolutely something in the rules that prevents it and that is the distinction between a provisional throw and a practice throw. You admit that you wanted to throw the second shot not "in case the first was lost" (that was just a convenient excuse/justification) but because you wanted to test out a second approach to the hole. That's not the time to be testing things out. The time for that is called practice...before or between rounds specifically. The hole's location relative to the parking lot and tournament central is irrelevant. If you don't want to make the hike out there before the round or between rounds, you don't get to practice it during the round.

You got away with it because your group was either ignorant of or ambivalent toward the rules of play. Unless the hole was one in which there was a genuine concern for loss of disc with thick schule or water near the basket or the shot was extremely errant, I wouldn't have allowed the provisional there.

Someone in the group had to be familiar enough with the hole to know your shot was a good one and possibly parked. If there was a chance it was inside the circle and lost, they'd surely know. At least well enough to suggest sending a spotter to watch all the drives beforehand. I mean, you threw a turnover Roc shot, it couldn't be so long of a hole that it wouldn't be worth walking up to spot. It arguably wasn't long enough to actually save all that much time. At least the top of the world hole has a far lengthier walk to get to/from the tee than the path the discs take.

So much of your response is subjective....as is the interpretation of our rules. Which is why I brought this "story" up.
Who's to say how far someone can throw a roc? If its downhill, turnover, you cant see the disc finish.....and whos to say it is definitely not lost? I have seen discs get lost in the middle of the fairway at tournaments, and not due to some crazy overgrown grass. And whos to say, what size a hole is to whether or not it is going to waste a lot of time if one had to return to the tee pad for a retee.
The point is, if no one on my card speaks up, I can do it....and even if they do speak up, if im a good enough arguer, I could probably still do it anyway. Its just another, of many, examples, where due to our poorly written rule book, there can be very different experiences from card to card....and when so much of the rules are subjective to interpretation, it can really be difficult for us all to be playing a "fair" game.
I mean hell, here recently, I am aware of two "friendly foot faults" in big tournaments.....you know, the ones where someone that rarely ever calls a fault on someone, if ever, yet when their buddy just shanked one into the woods they call a foot fault on them....allowing them to re-throw and improve their score by multiple strokes. Cant prove anything, and even if you could, there is absolutely zero recourse for such an incident.
Our rules need help....and even if its a "questionable use of a rule", if its not illegal and there is no recourse against it, who are we to be mad at? As much bull**** as it may be, if someone is finding a way to help themselves or their friends, within the rules as they are written.... is it cheating?
If rules are set up in a fashion that allows this type of stuff to happen, I have more of a problem with the rule book itself, then the people utilizing the written rules for their advantage.
I surely know I wouldn't object to someone using a provisional as I have described. Cause if they say hey, my disc may be lost so im gonna take a provisional to avoid the possible walk back to this teepad...im gonna say, sure man, go for it. I mean, why would I get myself in a tizzy arguing with them or anything. Sounds legit, its within the rules, and I don't have any real recourse against it.....same as witnessing a "friend fault" called. No matter how much I think its crap, doesn't change that once that "foot fault" is called, the player has absolutely zero option except to take a rethrow. And even if I was staring at his feet and every detail of his throw, and I knew 1000% that he did not foot fault...I cant change the call....that player will get a rethrow and a warning, and will save strokes off his score and there is nothing myself, my cardmates, or anyone else can do about it.

 

[DavidSauls]

On a really cool hole once, one that was real fun to drive, I proposed to my group that we all throw provisionals, even though we were 99% sure we'd find out discs, just for the sheer fun of it, and because there was no group behind us.

It was voted down unanimously, including by me, because it shouldn't be done. But it was tempting.