Maxing at 400ft on a good day, feel like I have awful lower body mechanics.

[sidewinder22]

Appreciate the call out, I definitely had time but wasn't making it! The kneeling ball toss was a suggestion back after the in person session I had a few months back which I thought I should follow up on.

I seem to love shifting from in front. Feel wise I felt like I was falling inside of that leg but the plant didn't feel comfortable/on top at all.

This is closer than the most recent.

 

[Jillian]

Two questions (or just general interest points):

1) I'm fairly convinced now that I have hip instability and overpronated feet (still have an arch, and chicken or egg situation about which came first), leading to the knee valgus issues exhibited in my one leg motions. Probably explains why my vertical jump, acceleration, balance and general athleticism suck as well as some prior ankle/patella tendonitis issues. Improving my hip/ankle/foot strength is my new focus, using one leg squats and jumps with good knee alignment as a benchmark to aim for. In the meantime, I noticed that in this thread both of you (SW and Brychanus) mention using orthotics for disc golf. I've just purchased some with arch support to insert in my casual shoes to promote better posture walking about whilst I also work on strengthening, would I also get benefit using them whilst working on my disc golf form in the meantime (with an eventual aim to not need them)? I don't want them to become a crutch because my instability isn't limited to the feet, but thinking they could assist me in being in posture and recruiting the kinetic chain better?

2) As some of my instability in the hips is weakness in the glute medius, would it make sense to accept some degree of externally rotated stance/horse stance in my form in the short term? Thinking that could help me keep ankle/knee/hip and spine alignment more easily by forcing me into the glute medius, and then as I get more control I could then work this back to a less horse stanced posture? I know it would effectively be aiming for "bad form", but with an aim to improve it and knowing the limitations/benefits of it.

 

[Brychanus]

Two questions (or just general interest points):

1) I'm fairly convinced now that I have hip instability and overpronated feet (still have an arch, and chicken or egg situation about which came first), leading to the knee valgus issues exhibited in my one leg motions. Probably explains why my vertical jump, acceleration, balance and general athleticism suck as well as some prior ankle/patella tendonitis issues. Improving my hip/ankle/foot strength is my new focus, using one leg squats and jumps with good knee alignment as a benchmark to aim for. In the meantime, I noticed that in this thread both of you (SW and Brychanus) mention using orthotics for disc golf. I've just purchased some with arch support to insert in my casual shoes to promote better posture walking about whilst I also work on strengthening, would I also get benefit using them whilst working on my disc golf form in the meantime (with an eventual aim to not need them)? I don't want them to become a crutch because my instability isn't limited to the feet, but thinking they could assist me in being in posture and recruiting the kinetic chain better?

2) As some of my instability in the hips is weakness in the glute medius, would it make sense to accept some degree of externally rotated stance/horse stance in my form in the short term? Thinking that could help me keep ankle/knee/hip and spine alignment more easily by forcing me into the glute medius, and then as I get more control I could then work this back to a less horse stanced posture? I know it would effectively be aiming for "bad form", but with an aim to improve it and knowing the limitations/benefits of it.

1) I use an orthotic on my left foot due to a childhood spiral fracture that led to developmental shortening in that leg and some knee issues that started back in my 20s. The orthotic contributes to stability but doesn't completely address the length asymmetry, which doubtless has affected my gait and DG development in one way or another, including injuries.

You should of course consult experts to make sure you aren't getting off track self-diagnosing/prescribing. If you do have issues there, after about ~10 years of going through related physical therapy suggests that most PTs say yes, you should consider orthotics if they are advised, and yes, you should be always willing to build up strength/stability/flexibility to get your body to move and support you as best as possible with or without orthotics.

This is why I am also piling on that you might be well-served to develop exercise routines that are specialized to help you for any issues there if you have them. I assure you that they don't get easier as you age if they are neglected

2) Well, I can only give you lived wisdom here. I think developing a compensatory form gives you a compensatory form and kinetic chains and reinforces the suboptimal muscle chains. I'm a good case study in a person who had the "wrong" kinds of athleticism and needed a lot of habit reform. One of the things I'm happy I have done every time I find true weakness or inflexibility is to be willing to slow down, change habits, and only work on the moves my body could handle at the time and allow more rest - just like when I was pushing my max in the gym. This has been the hardest form of patience to learn for me because for some reason I want to believe that disc golf is magically different than any other athletic task.

So in response to your own suggestion (and depending on your own goals!), I'd personally say:

(a) consult experts & adjust tools/habits accordingly

(b) unfortunately moving "more right" requires moving "somewhat" right to begin with, and if you can't do it you're probably just going to reinforce the suboptimal chain you already have. IMHO, try to do the DG moves "right", but treat them as exercises and work within the ranges/impacts your muscles can handle. Allow weeks for muscles to catch up (more if its pathological). Months for soft connective tissues to catch up. Ease up if you feel the connective tissues sending warning signals (which is easier to notice with sufficient rest!).

(c) as a sympathetic example, my glute medii were dog**** for months before I realized part of my problem is I lacked a lifetime of simple strengthening to help support me moving laterally. Working on this has been important to protect my knees as well because that's part of the chain of muscles that helps you maintain stability moving laterally. I agree that there's a cart-horse issue - I had pathologicalweakness, which made it hard for my body to do certain things at all. Those muscles are still within the group that tires the fastest when I throw and I continue to work on them. I have instituted a literal shot count during drive practice because I have figured out exactly when the weakest parts of my body tend to start crapping out and I'm just wasting time and getting hurt. This wisdom and more is why I will never not consider high-level disc golfers or aspiring golfers athletes.

My favorite exercises for not just the glute medii but lateral conditioning come from seabas22 Turbo Encabulator, and doing duck and monster walks with a resistance loop around the legs, and cable pull walks moving in a lateral direction (all these last moves were recommended by my sports medicine certified physical therapist). His point was to build the dynamic strength for the weak muscle chains that I never developed in the first place. You can also do duck walks in diagonal strides to work on those supporting muscles.

(d) keep in mind that most Olympic lifts are two-footed and more about front-back rather than lateral movement. If I were betting, I would put money on those people having some of the most trouble adapting to high-level disc golf mechanics the older they start. They (we) just don't have the "right" kind of conditioning and it takes time to catch up.


https://youtu.be/hX1RTECWxac?t=1221

 

[sidewinder22]

FYI I have custom orthotics from my podiatrist and have to break them in slowly the first week or two. If you jump too quickly into them, they can cause pain.

This is a fascinating discussion with Tom Myers of Anatomy Trains, he talks about wearing six different shoes to not get used to one kind which is an interesting theory. I'm not sure the practicality of it for being consistent in sports though. David Weck talks about using the tightest fitting shoes and zero drop heel, as possible for best athletic movement which I tend to agree with.

 

[Jillian]

Straight off the bat, you guys are the best. It probably doesn't always show in how crap my submissions are, but I care alot about this and get very distressed when my efforts or abilties feel threatened or in vain (e.g. by current strength limitations). There's an immediate panic to fix and understand everything to dig myself out of the hole as quickly as I can, which clearly after several years of work I have a long term understanding that I can work through things, but in the moment it's very all encompassing. Having you guys able to share so much of your own understanding, experience and perspective really means alot.

I'm very lucky to have 2 years remaining of full time study at Loughborough University, basically the single best sports institution in the world. Most of the British Olympians train here, alot of National sides are based on campus and most will do training camps here. It's still my favourite stat that if the university were an Olympic nation, medals won by their students would place it 15th overall. Even the students studying sport science get to work with professional/elite athletes as part of their degrees and placements. My favourite benefit is the degree of opportunity and access I have to sports facilities, support and expertise as well as the quality and drive that I'm surrounded by. Even for less developed sports like ultimate or disc golf the amount of opportunity and support is unreal and is definitely why I've even got this far at all.

Now that weird little advert for my uni is over, the whole reason I bring it up is because I do feel like if there's something to work on at all I am in a space I know I can overcome it in. I just need to understand what that is and where to go, which has been something I've been really slow on throughout this. I reached out to some Strength and Conditioning MSc students as well as throws coaches and gym staff, and after a session in the gym (video below) and reading through what you've both written I think I have a workplan and a better understanding of where I sit now.

My understanding now is that although I definitely am weak in the glutes, hip flexors and foot/ankles, alot of my issues are from poor motor skills/muscle control and how to conciously address knee drift/hip tilt as well as rationalise feelings against real. As an example, in the one legged throw posture even when I addressed the knee drift and brought that in line, my hanging leg's side of the pelvis tilted down and my hip kicked out laterally past the standing leg. Being corrected and guided how to fix that movement issue in the session immediately put me in the posture I've been searching for this whole time, where I've been treating it as a conceptual fault. Doing this for one and two legged squats, jumps, rotational moves and lunges addressed alot of big movement issues I think I've had for a while. Together we worked out a routine that will encourage correct movement patterns, strength and stability and along the way covered alot of pointers/notes that make me more confident that I can work on my disc golf and ultimate throwing habits in the same way simultaneously.

After all the panic, I'm actually really confident that this is an important and useful thing to work on and this will be transferrable for every athletic venture of mine (maybe I can even sky a chump next season). I'm much less concerned about a diagnosis and label now, and just that this is an area I need to work on. It was super helpful that by having a coach guide me through each motion, correct my posture and get me to feel it/show me how doing it incorrectly feels different I can now feel more confident about replicating this and improving it. It also really hit me what you're trying to get me to do on here, and how I'm too unaware of what I was doing wrong to understand where I was correct or incorrect. Super long winded way of saying you were definitely right, but I needed someone to physically and instantly feedback to me to get me there because I was too thick to work it out.

Please find the exercises I was guided through below. Most will have my old incorrect posture followed by the new, adjusted, and hopefully on track to success postures. I think my strength level right now is such that I can adopt the postures, but not neccersarily complete intense reps or full ranges of motion in every exercise (which I'm comfortable is part of the process). I did my first pull up at the age of 24 like 3 months ago after 6 months of eccentric only, and now I'm churning them out so I know that I can get there. Am I disappointed that the british state education system turns out kids with zero base level athleticism, absolutely. Has that slowed me down right now, maybe. Will it stop me becoming world champ and throwing 700 feet, no (at least not that specifically).



Really appreciate the suggested methodology for working on this. Totally get you about avoiding compensatory forms. I'm alot more comfortable taking it slowly now I know where I stand and what I have in place. I'll be doing the routine that was designed for me, and also will work on foundational motions (ala turbo encabulatory) with an emphasis on quality of movement. Hopefully I'll start churning out some appreciable improvements for your viewing pleasure.

 

[Brychanus]

It is good to be surrounded by experts and I am glad you can avail yourself of them. I hope you can share some video of high level DG mechanics and stir up interest there

Just one more "long run" nugget for you. Think of anything you are good at and how long it took your brain or body to become good at it. For many of us growing up, we don't notice it happening because it is just part of life, and one day you're doing well. But it was hundreds of more likely thousands of hours of work over time. Riding a bike is only easy to do as an adult after a long time off because most of us learned it while young. The same goes for muscular development and coordination more generally, it turns out.

FWIW, your body moves like mine did in PT early on struggling with strength and balance in key areas working on moves on one foot or moving foot to foot. That's ok. Stick with it. You'll probably keep discovering new tiers of difficulty over time for each of the moves you're showing there. Then you'll gradually be moving stronger and better than you ever did before.

From a gym and DG perspective, IMHO don't fall into the trap that once you get better at them muscularly and balance wise (that will probably happen in just a few weeks) you're "done." I underestimated how underdeveloped parts of my body were since I was so used to being very strong at other tasks. There are real athletic demands to the high level throw, and they are very different than what you were doing before. You can get there.

If you are after the athleticism you need for high level DG drives, my guess is the physio folks there will probably tell you, you're talking months/years. That's ok. I think if you just keep the learner's mentality forever you will be much less frustrated and have more fun than hoping you will be "done" in a few weeks or months. YMMV. Keep chipping away with form experts and physical experts and you can go far. You will keep getting better along the way.

 

[Jillian]

Some first looks, there's something I'm really proud of at the end (I think). I'm already feeling comfortable getting into a good strong posture, and more and more without really cueing it and instead just doing it. I'm trying really hard to build these motor skills into how I stand, walk and do general motions through my day (and hence why there's an ultimate pivot below too). I'm obviously not strong/proficient in these areas yet but I'm finding it very reassuring. Also totally getting what you meant by hitting a limit with this stuff, but making progress has meant so far I've known when to stop before I go too far.





Also, as promised, I think we got a good one in there.

I'm hesitant to say it, but I think below I have a video of me doing IT. With the new motor skills I was really able to hone into the rear glute stretch, and I felt like I held it through the drift/hershyzer. It's the first time on film I think my pelvis is properly tilted through such a large weight shift, and my rear leg isn't extending. By slashing through, I think there's a consistent swing axis braced on the inside of a properly aligned foot/knee/hip and all of that "from behind". I'm not saying it's good/clean, but I think we brushed the surface?

 

[sidewinder22]

Your med balls looks decent, but on your throws you have this jerky hip thrust on the front leg.

Hershyzer needs to start more turned back with more butt facing target.

 

[Jillian]

I think I see what you mean about the hip thrust, funky. Do you think that could be me doing something different with respect to changing the swing plane, or maybe due to the different weight of what I'm throwing? I definitely get worse mechanically in general throwing discs vs medballs.

Will work on the hershyzer!

 

[sidewinder22]

Hard to tell because your med ball has no lateral shift while your throws have a lot.

The Finish & Address Position & Pre-Shot Routine

Shawn Clement had an older Finish Position video similar to the one below. He said that the Finish Position is the Tuning Fork of Your Form. I thought that was a really profound statement and it really helped me fine tune my form. The finish position is like watching the ripples from a stone...

www.dgcoursereview.com

 

[Jillian]

I think I may have found the cause/solution to the weird hip thrust/bump. I'd been getting frustrated trying to perform lunges/split squats in good posture, when my knee was aligned my hips weren't level and adjusting with my lower hip's hip flexor wasn't working. My ankles being weak is definitely a part of my poor posture here, but also my leg felt it wasn't aligned properly anyways as I wasn't feeling loaded properly in my glute or quad so I questioned my one leg hip hinge. After playing around, by bringing my leg more "under" my pelvis as opposed to "beside" it absolutely transformed the feeling from being in my hamstrings to the glute. The video above shows before and after (second one is better hip hinge) and suddenly my hips are way more level. Another motor skill to learn but hopefully a helpful one.

I also had a coaching session with the 3x british women's javelin champion last week, which was incredibly useful to have her directly coach me through weight transfer and she was highlighting alot of the same issues. At the time I was struggling to adopt her feedback, and I think this hinge might be a large part of that. Highlighting this is also helping me see common faults in my forehand that I wasn't able to before, exciting prospect to me that these postural fixes will have benefits all around my game.

 

[Jillian]

Sorry it's been a while, thought I'd give an update. I'm making progress on my ankle and knee control in the gym and feeling alot stronger in that regard. It's wild how quickly some extra mobility has come around as a result.

Something really interesting that's appeared on my radar lately are articles on hip vs knee dominance in cricket fast bowlers. The similarities to my childhood and disc golf situation are uncanny. As a kid I was never a fast bowler (I transitioned to leg spin for a reason!), and I would be classified as a slinger. What's funny is that I think I would classify my disc golf throw as a sling in the same way (swinging my torso off axis effectively extending my arm unit's length), and the features of the knee dominant bowler describe alot of the form issues I've seen.

Hip vs knee dominance article 1

Hip vs knee dominance article 2

Hip vs knee dominance article 3

A really interesting pathway was mentioned that I've dropped below:

1. Identify the traits and movement characteristics of the individual athlete.
2. Recognize the movement requirements of the sport and position (or other activity) in which the athlete participates/competes.
3. Train the primary attribute to a high level.
4. Develop the secondary attribute to no longer be a liability and to be a usable option.
5. Bias training to best match the talents of the athlete to the demands of his/her sport.

I think there are some really important take aways from the articles:

1. To generate more speed with my knee dominant form I should maximise my lever length, minimise time on the back foot and work through squat strength.
2. To work towards a more hip dominant form, conscious cues are unlikely to be helpful. Knee dominance is currently an intrinsic pathway from childhood, and I lack springiness. I'm more likely to see benefit by building tendon tension through things like pogos and one leg hops and stuff.
3. Probably more but I've lost my train of thought.

Interested in anyone else's thoughts.

 

[Brychanus]

I appreciate you sharing these and will read them when I get time.

I think my own lateral ankle stability got dramatically better in the last year. I used to roll my ankles all the time and now it really doesn't happen unless I miss a curb funny or something.

I also am still a big fan of exercises that train forward and back, lateral, and diagonal movement stability, gradually working up the momentum/force gradient. If you didn't develop these growing up I would suspect that many players bump into real physical limitations there.

 

[Jillian]

So I think the hip/ankle strengthening is paying some dividends. The main thing I'm happiest about with these is the ankle-knee-hip alignment being in the correct order.

I've also found "The good throw" a really good resource, thank you for compiling that, having it all in one place really does alot for the communication of it. Working on my one leg balance, knee control, reading the good throw and the takeaways from my session with Bekah lead me to today's prompt of trying to sit into the rear hip. The two main issues to overcome seem to be extending through the knee and rotating out of leverage. I don't think today's efforts are right, but I think they're a step in the right direction? I don't think the tilt is quite right, or the east-west stagger, or the head control, but better at not extending through the knee and not rotating out of the hip? I've also included some throws literally sat down, pretty happy with the pure upper body aspect of that not tipping indicating more to be that the problem lies below. The idea of sitting into the throw is in alot of the advice and I've definitely tried it in the past (but I wouldn't put it past me to not know how to sit down properly), and I don't think I tried it for the rear leg load.

 

[Brychanus]

So I think the hip/ankle strengthening is paying some dividends. The main thing I'm happiest about with these is the ankle-knee-hip alignment being in the correct order.

I've also found "The good throw" a really good resource, thank you for compiling that, having it all in one place really does alot for the communication of it. Working on my one leg balance, knee control, reading the good throw and the takeaways from my session with Bekah lead me to today's prompt of trying to sit into the rear hip. The two main issues to overcome seem to be extending through the knee and rotating out of leverage. I don't think today's efforts are right, but I think they're a step in the right direction? I don't think the tilt is quite right, or the east-west stagger, or the head control, but better at not extending through the knee and not rotating out of the hip? I've also included some throws literally sat down, pretty happy with the pure upper body aspect of that not tipping indicating more to be that the problem lies below. The idea of sitting into the throw is in alot of the advice and I've definitely tried it in the past (but I wouldn't put it past me to not know how to sit down properly), and I don't think I tried it for the rear leg load.

YW. I think I might be convinced to recast it as "The Good Throw" more formally if SW agrees to avoid some of the circular "pull/swing" quagmire of arguments. IMO it's kind of a strange and maybe even meaningless debate once you account for posture and balance of the whole body during the movement, but maybe one day I'll eat my hat.

Anyway! I think I'd advise you to work in the same range of motion and not rush ahead with your head and work on it helping your tilt into the backswing and then again into the swing. I failed to ever fully fix this in my own form and I have some painful weeks of correction ahead of me. This will help you get that "ride the bull" like action into your move and less stuck between your feet too - I think your body is still rotating a bit too much around a vertical axis. Be smarter than me!

Last, I'm all for experimenting, but worried that actually throwing in the chair will reinforce really flat movement between the hips and upper body, which might backfire in the long run.

 

[Jillian]

YW. I think I might be convinced to recast it as "The Good Throw" more formally if SW agrees to avoid some of the circular "pull/swing" quagmire of arguments. IMO it's kind of a strange and maybe even meaningless debate once you account for posture and balance of the whole body during the movement, but maybe one day I'll eat my hat.

Anyway! I think I'd advise you to work in the same range of motion and not rush ahead with your head and work on it helping your tilt into the backswing and then again into the swing. I failed to ever fully fix this in my own form and I have some painful weeks of correction ahead of me. This will help you get that "ride the bull" like action into your move and less stuck between your feet too - I think your body is still rotating a bit too much around a vertical axis. Be smarter than me!

View attachment 315813

Last, I'm all for experimenting, but worried that actually throwing in the chair will reinforce really flat movement between the hips and upper body, which might backfire in the long run.

Really appreciate the rapid reply, here's to me doing a good job of actioning it!

 

[Jillian]

YW. I think I might be convinced to recast it as "The Good Throw" more formally if SW agrees to avoid some of the circular "pull/swing" quagmire of arguments. IMO it's kind of a strange and maybe even meaningless debate once you account for posture and balance of the whole body during the movement, but maybe one day I'll eat my hat.

Anyway! I think I'd advise you to work in the same range of motion and not rush ahead with your head and work on it helping your tilt into the backswing and then again into the swing. I failed to ever fully fix this in my own form and I have some painful weeks of correction ahead of me. This will help you get that "ride the bull" like action into your move and less stuck between your feet too - I think your body is still rotating a bit too much around a vertical axis. Be smarter than me!

View attachment 315813

Last, I'm all for experimenting, but worried that actually throwing in the chair will reinforce really flat movement between the hips and upper body, which might backfire in the long run.

Real curveball of a thought, but if a chair is a bad idea how about a swing? A seat that allows the hips to swing under the torso like we want? Then if you push the slack out of the swing/deviate it from its ideal path I'm assuming you're doing something unideal with your legs?

 

[Brychanus]

Real curveball of a thought, but if a chair is a bad idea how about a swing? A seat that allows the hips to swing under the torso like we want? Then if you push the slack out of the swing/deviate it from its ideal path I'm assuming you're doing something unideal with your legs?

That's kind of interesting. I guess I'd have to see it but it would allow you to be more dynamic and might tell the body a little about the tilted axis/"ramp ride" of the body.

My issue there is that you wouldn't be getting very good body feedback about leverage or tilt starting with the feet. I think double dragon is probably the best move I'm aware of to access that feel and most people don't spend as much time with it as they probably should. It's not quite in your move yet so messing with it a bit more could help.

 

[Jillian]

Rapid turnaround I know, but had ideas so actioned them. The head thing is fully solvable, and I think I have. I think I have a tendency to put it in lateral flexion to look over my shoulder (especially when tilted) rather than pure rotation. Focussing on that sorted it right out and is definitely something I can work on with my current form. On the point of transfer between the feet I tried swinging my lead leg under my pelvis (hip extension movement) and that seems to have done nice things (I think put me into a shift from behind). Along with the "sit" cue I think there's promise. Could probably do with more external rotation as well as the hip extension on the lead leg to put my joints in better alignment?

 

[Jillian]

I've actually done it. Good spinal alignment, weight transfer, hip/shoulder separation, joint alignment. Naturally chose linen trousers and a button up for such a momentous occasion. Still issues with head position, crush and coming straight on top of that plant leg to name a few things but I'll take it.



The only issue was it was a few days ago and I haven't recreated it since. I thought I'd internalised the changes but I don't think I have. Instead of trying (and probably failing) to relay what I was thinking at the time, I'm going to link the articles that inspired the thoughts and drop in some quotes/pictures that connected with me. I've already got ideas of what I was forgetting, and I can compare myself against myself now with video too.

Article 1: Baseball hip cock

Article 2: HIP HINGE, HIP SHOULDER SEPARATION, AND MAINTAINING SPINE ANGLE IN BASEBALL

This gif represents two different strategies for a hinge. In one of the swings, the knee tracks over the toes, signifying an anterior dominant strategy. The move that shows the internal rotation of the trail hip and the glutes tracking over the heels, signifies a posterior dominant hinge, which is what we are looking for in the swing.

Article 3: Sway

Finally, the ability to laterally stabilize your right leg during the backswing is directly proportional to the strength and stability of your gluteal musculature (your butt). When it comes to lower body lateral stabilization the glute medius is the king. This muscle helps prevent the right hip from elevating and shifting lateral during an aggressive coil into the right hip.

I'll figure it back out.

Additionally, I think I understand my head position issue and what to aim for instead. Currently I set my head up like a batter in cricket, however most cricket shots aren't as rotational a motion. I think I should be aiming for a baseball type setup, where I think the main difference is the lateral flexion of the neck as suggested previously.