Movement in top 10

[ru4por]

agreed. plus i also think it would be easy to add a tr number rating below the full rating.
for example - harmony bends - see thumbnail

rating:
ooooo
4.90
tr - 5.00

TR's are great....to a point. I think they kind of represent a very similar disc golf demographic though. Obviously, they have played a lot of courses, most are vets to the game, most are probably pretty competent golfers. This experience lends many attributes that the new or casual golfer may not have.....example....When a more experience golfer shanks a shot into the shule, we have a pretty good idea of where to look for the disc. We understand what the disc will do, once out of sight, how far it might travel down hill, once out of sight and most are pretty good at looking down the shot, not turning away in frustration. These skill, learned as they are, may impact the TR's view of the rough on a course.

I am sure Harmony Bends is a fantastic course, but let's wait for a few noob reviews, trashing it for being too hard, or hilly, or lacking some certain amenity that the particular player highly values. All the other courses on the list certainly have these figured into the rank.

 

[Stardoggy]

If a system of TR only ratings were incorporated, it would be nice to add a multiplier to said ratings by TR level.

Diamond-5x
Gold-3x
Silver-2x
Bronze-1x

Or something similar. Maybe it's only 2.0/1.5/1.25/1, but you catch my drift. Mostly because it doesn't take all that much to become a Bronze level reviewer, and it takes a ton to become a Diamond level reviewer.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

From a statistics perspective, ru4por makes some valid points about TR's representing a somewhat limited and specific segment of the general population. That said, there are a lot of non-TR's (like himself) that have as much (if not more) experience as many TR's.

A ton of variables can affect people evaluate and rate a course:
• How long they've been playing.
• # of courses played.
• # of different areas/states/countries played; what seems incredible in one region might only seem slightly above average in another.
• Considering tournament play vs. casual rounds.
• Local's perspective vs. a traveler's perspective.

Supposed to be listening to this conference call, so I forgot where I'm going with this, but I think the point is everyone's opinion is valid from a certain point of view.

 

[ru4por]

From a statistics perspective, ru4por makes some valid points about TR's representing a somewhat limited and specific segment of the general population. That said, there are a lot of non-TR's (like himself) that have as much (if not more) experience as many TR's.

A ton of variables can affect people evaluate and rate a course:
• How long they've been playing.
• # of courses played.
• # of different areas/states/countries played; what seems incredible in one region might only seem slightly above average in another.
• Considering tournament play vs. casual rounds.
• Local's perspective vs. a traveler's perspective.

Supposed to be listening to this conference call, so I forgot where I'm going with this, but I think the point is everyone's opinion is valid from a certain point of view.

This is where I was going with my post. I have maintained in this thread all along, that TR's opinions are no more valid than anyone else. They may add more value for many using the review feature, but as a traveling golfer, some TR's have a vastly different set of priorities in their review standards, than I might find important. Many place great weight on course design elements. I could care not care less. The hole offers no reasonable lines......so what? The course is set with too many holes left to right (lefty or sidearm friendly).....so what? The point, as it has been all along from me is.........we all have different priorities and things we look for in a course. I am more than comfortable with a two disc review from some noob, complaining about the lack of picnic tables. As the discerning traveler, I will read through the reviews, good and bad, and glean the information I feel important. I maintain, I don't really think the review and rating here are broken, in any fashion.

 

[Lazerface]

Does the average eliminate outliers? Sorry if that was already discussed I'm a lazy reader. Rather than relay on a TR average only it would be much more simple from a programming perspective to just eliminate outliers from the average after a certain number of reviews on a given course. I don't know what would be considered an outlier with a small range of 1 to 5, given how opinions vary, but for an established course that is a 4.5 I don't see a point in including some newbs 2.0 in the average. A minimum amount of reviews is certainly necessary to make sure it's not just a 5.0 because the 10 guys who put the course in and their buddies have all the reviews, but eventually it should work itself out. Lots to consider and that was just my thought after reading the last few comments.

 

[Lazerface]

On Harmony Bends - I played the course last WED for the 2nd time when my brother was in town from CO . It really is the best course I have played, but I have not played any others in the top 5. With that said, the holes in the valley that have the large creek lining the fairways have over a hundred feet thick stinging nettle from the edge of the fairway down to the creeks edge with no trails or areas to walk in the stuff. It's seriously like 95% nettle and too thick to see down into. We saw 2 discs sitting in the creek and we made the same decision as the thrower to leave them because getting down there in shorts would of been horrendous. If you fear snakes it would be scary too cause it's that thick (I'm a snake guy, so it was the burning from the nettle that did me in). I did not like that the "rough" was really just natural OB given the nettle. The mower went through the course the morning we played and one extra strip of the nettle was cut and I found 4 discs in that 48 inch strip on the edge of one fairway. I would not let that affect my rating - it's a 5.0 in my book, but they really need to spray that ****, or brush hog it. I don't recall hole numbers but it's on the edge of the fairway on one of the iconic holes where you throw your tee shot over the edge of the winding creek and there is an awesome tree that stretches out across the fairway horizontally a couple hundred feet short of the basket.

 

[ru4por]

Does the average eliminate outliers? Sorry if that was already discussed I'm a lazy reader. Rather than relay on a TR average only it would be much more simple from a programming perspective to just eliminate outliers from the average after a certain number of reviews on a given course. I don't know what would be considered an outlier with a small range of 1 to 5, given how opinions vary, but for an established course that is a 4.5 I don't see a point in including some newbs 2.0 in the average. A minimum amount of reviews is certainly necessary to make sure it's not just a 5.0 because the 10 guys who put the course in and their buddies have all the reviews, but eventually it should work itself out. Lots to consider and that was just my thought after reading the last few comments.

Why? The opinion of someone that does not agree with the majority of reviewer, should be considered invalid? If some guy doesn't like the course, he should be able to rate it as he wishes. I completely fail to understand how or why the opinions of some should be considered more valid.

Sorry Lazer, not directed at you personally.

A great example would be my take of Flip. I really enjoy this course, but would likely rate it a solid three/three and a half disc course. It simply does not provide me with those things I would need to put it in the top ten courses I have ever played.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

As has been addressed ad nauseum in several threads prior to this one, outlier ratings really only affect the overall average when a course has relatively few reviews. Once a course reaches a critical mass of reviews, (twenty seems to work pretty well), things tend to work themselves out pretty well.

I don't recall hole numbers but it's on the edge of the fairway on one of the iconic holes where you throw your tee shot over the edge of the winding creek and there is an awesome tree that stretches out across the fairway horizontally a couple hundred feet short of the basket.

#13... and yes, that's an awesome tree arcing across the fairway, with the river skirting the left side all the way down.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

I don't care if you're the lovechild of Korver & Climo, a total n00b, or somewhere in between: HB is a special course.

The front 9 are strong.* I'm not the only person who thought 1-9 was the best nine hole stretch I've ever played. Really had me pondering what rating I'd have given as a niner on their own... and there are some spectacular holes on the back 9 as well (including 2 of the 3 best holes on the course, IMO).


* think of Sidious/Palpatine when he says "The Force is strong with you," to Anakin.

 

[Lazerface]

As has been addressed ad nauseum in several threads prior to this one, outlier ratings really only affect the overall average when a course has relatively few reviews. Once a course reaches a critical mass of reviews, (twenty seems to work pretty well), things tend to work themselves out pretty well.


#13... and yes, that's an awesome tree arcing across the fairway, with the river skirting the left side all the way down.

Good point, they don't do much to the average over time. Based on all I have read I think the ratings are good as is.

#13 is a great hole for sure. Maybe the signature hole, but that's a hard sell since Harmony has so many. Just remove the damn nettle ya know... I'm such a snowflake.

 

[Lazerface]

Why? The opinion of someone that does not agree with the majority of reviewer, should be considered invalid? If some guy doesn't like the course, he should be able to rate it as he wishes. I completely fail to understand how or why the opinions of some should be considered more valid.

Sorry Lazer, not directed at you personally.

A great example would be my take of Flip. I really enjoy this course, but would likely rate it a solid three/three and a half disc course. It simply does not provide me with those things I would need to put it in the top ten courses I have ever played.

They should absolutely be able to rate it as they wish, but I was purposing eliminating outliers from the overall average. People could still view the review. You're right though, it's 100% subjective.

I'm imagining a course with 150 ratings and a 4.8 average, then a 1.0 review comes along. By eliminating this review from the average I guess we are calling it "invalid". But I'm OK with that.

This is going to be a terrible analogy because I'm going to conflate scientific facts with a rating system that is 100% subjective, but I guess I see the 1.0 reviewer kind of like a flat earthers opinion, while I see all the opinions that lead to a 4.8 as the opinion of settled science. Over time it's OK to assume the 1.0 rating is BS and it could therefore be removed from the average and considered invalid. The same as me telling a friend that the Youtube videos he watched that lead him down the flat earth rabbit hole are invalid - without me even watching them.

But as another poster pointed out to me the occasional outlier has little affect on the overall average when these courses get a good number of reviews, so it's really a non issue. I have no issue with the ratings system, but started reading the thread and threw something out there.

I would assume your review of Flip would not be considered an outlier. When there is only a range of 1-5 a 3/3.5 should NOT be considered an outlier (assuming Flip is like a 4.5). This compounds the point that outliers as I see them are likely a non issue.

 

[Lazerface]

I don't care if you're the lovechild of Korver & Climo, a total n00b, or somewhere in between: HB is a special course.

The front 9 are strong.* I'm not the only person who thought 1-9 was the best nine hole stretch I've ever played. Really had me pondering what rating I'd have given as a niner on their own... and there are some spectacular holes on the back 9 as well (including 2 of the 3 best holes on the course, IMO).


* think of Sidious/Palpatine when he says "The Force is strong with you," to Anakin.

Word.

 

[New013]

I disagree that Trusted Reviews are the same as all the reviews. I do believe that not all Trusted Reviews are created equally.

Personally I always click on the TR check mark to get rid of all the noob reviews. Then I scroll through the TR's to see if somebody I know, who writes reviews that I jive with, reviewed the course. Those are the TR's I listen to. If none of them are on there then I'll just try and mish mash the rest together.

 

[BrotherDave]

This is where I was going with my post. I have maintained in this thread all along, that TR's opinions are no more valid than anyone else. They may add more value for many using the review feature, but as a traveling golfer, some TR's have a vastly different set of priorities in their review standards, than I might find important. Many place great weight on course design elements. I could care not care less. The hole offers no reasonable lines......so what? The course is set with too many holes left to right (lefty or sidearm friendly).....so what? The point, as it has been all along from me is.........we all have different priorities and things we look for in a course. I am more than comfortable with a two disc review from some noob, complaining about the lack of picnic tables. As the discerning traveler, I will read through the reviews, good and bad, and glean the information I feel important. I maintain, I don't really think the review and rating here are broken, in any fashion.

If you're not particularly particular about DG courses, why would you be on DGcoursereview.com to begin with? That's like somebody that thinks all beer tastes the same and doesn't mind drinking Milwaukee's Best spending time on BeerAdvocate.com or something. The greatest weight should be placed on design elements, otherwise it'd be DGCourseLocator.com

 

[New013]

I bet he thought everybody who went solo down the Soul Train dance line were equal as well.

 

[ru4por]

If you're not particularly particular about DG courses, why would you be on DGcoursereview.com to begin with? That's like somebody that thinks all beer tastes the same and doesn't mind drinking Milwaukee's Best spending time on BeerAdvocate.com or something. The greatest weight should be placed on design elements, otherwise it'd be DGCourseLocator.com

I am pretty particular about DG courses. My point was that TR's per-say, do not always represent my particular concerns, wants or wishes. I thought I had expressed that pretty well.

TR's reviews do not always have more value, to me, than other reviews on a course.

I find it odd that anyone should feel entitled to tell me, or any golfer, what should be weighted most, in the decision to play a course, or not. If I weight garbage cans, benches and tee signs, more than course design, I want to feel some love for it. If proximity to a highway, low chances of losing a disc and cart friendly are important to me, I want to feel no shame. TR's may not be the best resource for those kind of things. And people should be free to rank/rate a course with those type things as the primary consideration.
As New stated, I too have found some reviewers that seem to have the same opinion on what constitutes a good course. I seek them out.....some are TR's....some not.

 

[dreadlock86]

Sure, from the user standpoint there's no difference because you just click a button and you see the reviews and maybe there's a retabulation in the backgroun. As for TimG's side of things he would have to set the review page to be able to tabulate an average rating based on reviews from a list of reviewers which is not simply "all reviews" as he has things setup currently. This would involve something like creating a new table just for the trusted reviewers which he would have to move people into as they gained that status. Even if he doesn't move the trusted reviewers, the account property that grants them that status would now have to be accounted for in course ratings and he would have to rewrite a lot of crap to make this work. He's a smart guy. I'm sure he could figure it out. I just wouldn't hold your breath that this is a project he wants to take on.

Let's say this feature was implemented and it was extremely popular. I have a concern for validity of those future trusted reviewer's reviews. There would be a potential corruption since each course would only have a couple trusted reviewer reviews. A few of these reviewers could give poor rating to a private course who didn't let the trusted reviewer play for free or they could inflate course ratings due to personal relationships with designers, land owners, etc.

Of course I hope that would not happen but it is a possibility - if that feature were to become a big deal.

In the end, if you're on the fence about playing a course and a trusted reviewer's review is what will turn your "maybe I'll play it" into an "I'll probably play it" then don't waste your time traveling to that course. It's great that a lot of people take a lot of time and care to review a course in such a detailed way but it's not like trip advisor where you're trying to decide on spending $$$$ to goto country X or $$$$ to goto country Y. I don't think having a trusted reviewer-only rating would be that great in the end.

all good points

 

[HarkeyPuck]

I remember when Moraine AND Deer Lakes were in the top 10. Now just the top 20. With somewhere near 6000 courses, that's still in the top 0.333% still pretty good for free courses.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

I remember when Moraine AND Deer Lakes were in the top 10. Now just the top 20. With somewhere near 6000 courses, that's still in the top 0.333% still pretty good for free courses.

You gotta love when truly phenomenal courses are free to play. Something often overlooked about having a outstanding courses in public parks is they'll likely be around longer than most private courses, are typically available more of the year (Ozark Mountain ), and maniatined more consistently.

Flyboy had to go on the DL because they were getting too much traffic. Several of them are gone because the owners couldn't afford to keep them going or keep up with the maintenance, or found something "better" to do with the property.

I tip my cap to all the owners who busted your butts (not to mention your wallets), not only to put them in, but for the ongoing sacrifice it takes to keep them going. :clap: :clap: :clap:

Really gives you an appreciation for just how long Bill's been keeping Flip City in world class condition; endless hours on a mower, cutting paths into the rough, selective pruning, and lord knows how many other things I'm not even be aware of. The place has been going strong for over two decades: Flip City History.

If DGCR had Course Owner Lifetime Achievement award, I'd nominate Bill McKenzie for his continued dedication to keeping that place as nice as it is, and pretty much having an open invitation to anyone who wants to play it.

Enjoy them while we can.

 

[HarkeyPuck]

Really gives you an appreciation for just how long Bill's been keeping Flip City in world class condition; endless hours on a mower, cutting paths into the rough, selective pruning, and lord knows how many other things I'm not even be aware of. The place has been going strong for over two decades: Flip City History.

If DGCR had Course Owner Lifetime Achievement award, I'd nominate Bill McKenzie for his continued dedication to keeping that place as nice as it is, and pretty much having an open invitation to anyone who wants to play it.

Enjoy them while we can.

Totally agree. I've been there twice for multiple day stays, and Flip was one of those WOW moments. The more you play it, the more you realize how much Bill actually puts into the course! Man I need to get back there.