Movement in top 10

[scarpfish]

Selah Lakeside just got its lowest rating - 3.5. Reviewer copy & pasted the same generic review for both Lakeside and Creekside.

That sort of thing should be reported.

 

[MikeK]

No it should not be reported. Just because a course is rated in the top 10, doesn't mean it shouldn't have to stand up against all reviewers. If you delete reviews you create a bias which is not helpful.

 

[reezyF]

No it should not be reported. Just because a course is rated in the top 10, doesn't mean it shouldn't have to stand up against all reviewers. If you delete reviews you create a bias which is not helpful.

This is true, but the reviewer goes on to berate the course's open-ness (which is pretty arguable), brags about the # of courses played and reviewed with only 7 played & reviewed in profile info (maybe he has multiple dgcr profiles?), and rated Selah the same as Rivery park in Georgetown which is just silly. I agree the reviews shouldn't be removed but c'mon man.

Then again maybe I'm just salty about Selah dropping to #2

 

[mrclc]

You make a valid point. To which I respond:

1) To a certain degree, people can only rate it based on what it's like when they play it. If it was dry when they played it, so be it.

2) My son and I had already planned our trip to coincide with the Tigers being in KC, and ended up playing HB the day after a downpour that forced locals to cancel the 2nd round of a tournament. Based on what I'd read about the course, I picked up a couple of pairs of knee-high rubber galoshes ... glad I did! The water was not bad at all on the front 9, or 15 - 18, but much of the fairways from 10 - 14 were under water up anywhere from 2"-6" deep. I don't think any of the tees were submerged. Even with most of 10-14 under water, it was without qualification, one of the very best DG experiences I've ever had.

3) How should one account for a course's tendency to hold water when reviewing/rating?
I've played other courses in flood plains, and rate them based on what I think are typical conditions, but clearly indicate in my review if the course tends to hold water or drains well, and let the course conditions tell people whether it flooded or swampy. I don't necessarily thing the overall rating should reflect how the course plays in it's poorest state, but there's something to be said for factoring in the likelihood of said poorest state.

No doubt HB will be wet for more days of the year than other courses in the area, and players might be wise to road tripping to HB during spring thaw/rains.

Thanks for your thoughts, Bogey. My response to your responses:

1) This is why I personally try to play a course at least twice before I review, and ideally on different days. I'd hate to rate a course too high or too low if I'm playing on an outlier day.

2) Those holes were pretty soggy when I played (in addition to 1 & 18), but nowhere near that severe. I got by with my waterproof shoes, but I would've been pretty upset if they were much wetter. Knowing that the course gets much wetter reinforces my belief in a 4.5 rating.

3) I can't say definitively that I've played other flood plain routings, but I've played a lot of courses overall, and trudging through soupy fairways is one of my disc golfing pet peeves. I don't advocate rating a course based upon its worst possible conditions, but if I can expect to be playing through wetlands for 3-5 months out of the year I feel obligated to deduct from my rating. I wouldn't expect any of my personal permanent course 5's (Idlewild, Flip, Rollin Ridge, WR Jackson, Selah Lakeside, and possibly BRP in no particular order) to be so negatively affected by conditions on any given day. HB is definitely in the same league as those others design-wise, but that uncertainty keeps me from awarding the full 5 discs.

Also, here's to a positive disagreement on the Internet.

 

[NDABRUSH]

The Selah courses were 1,2 at one point.....both designed by Houck.

You are correct. For some reason I didn't count creekside. I guess I should have said top 2 courses at 2 different locations by the same designer. Creekside didn't last too long at 2, and probably won't be in the top 20 in a year or 2. Harmony is the new hot chick on the block.

 

[giles]

This is true, but the reviewer goes on to berate the course's open-ness (which is pretty arguable), brags about the # of courses played and reviewed with only 7 played & reviewed in profile info (maybe he has multiple dgcr profiles?), and rated Selah the same as Rivery park in Georgetown which is just silly. I agree the reviews shouldn't be removed but c'mon man.

Then again maybe I'm just salty about Selah dropping to #2

Yeah, I like Rivery and shot my only 1000 rated tourney round there but it isn't even close to on the same level as Selah. I only played Lakeside and Creekside once when they were brand new so I'm might not be remembering clearly but he didn't describe the courses I played.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

No it should not be reported. Just because a course is rated in the top 10, doesn't mean it shouldn't have to stand up against all reviewers. If you delete reviews you create a bias which is not helpful.

I agree with this. Unless there's something blatantly wrong and obvious about a reviewer having an agenda that involves something other than their opinion of the course... which is neigh on impossible to prove, every review counts.

Sample size is the great equalizer... when a course reaches a certain critical mass of reviews, the effect of outlier ratings is greatly minimized.

Totally agree. I've been there twice for multiple day stays, and Flip was one of those WOW moments. The more you play it, the more you realize how much Bill actually puts into the course! Man I need to get back there.

^This! I just played Flip again yesterday. I still think it's a 5.0, must play, you'll have a freaking blast and want to come back experience.

I particularly love how Bill cuts paths into the grass creating sections of rough. Just pay attention to which section of tall grass your grip-locked drive lands in, and it pinpoints your search efforts. :thmbup: I love how the elevation forces you to think about putts and approaches. I love how beautiful it is. I love all the thought that's been put into it, and how satisfying it is to play.

I truly understand (and even appreciate) how some people give Flip 4.5's and even 4.0's. If all of us listed the things we look for in a course, I bet most of us would have the same things on that list, but not necessarily in the same order. While what we look for a might not change all that much from one person to the next, what "weight" we place on one attribute vs. another clearly varies from on person to the next. Clearly, this can and should affect individuals' ratings. If you're and AM1 or Open player looking for a big time challenge, and that's what really important to YOU, you probably wont be all that impressed with Flip, and probably rate Goliath or Leviathan Longs higher. It all depends on your perspective, and everyone's entitled to see things their way.

Like anything else in life: find a few people you trust, and listen to them.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

If in your mind a course needs to be all things to all players, all the time ...then perhaps no course deserves a 5.0.

 

[da Crippler]

If in your mind a course needs to be all things to all players, all the time ...then perhaps no course deserves a 5.0.

Absolutely. Use Rollin Ridge as an example. In August and September when it's dry, RR is a 5. In April and May when it's soggy and you finish your round with wet feet and pants soaked to the knees, it's a 4, or worse on some days. The same with my home course. I consider it a 4, but in the spring when the skeeters are bad and holes are flooded, I wouldn't recommend it to my worst enemy.

 

[PoorPutter]

Regarding the new 3.5 reviews for Selah's two courses, this is probably the best reason to DQ them, if you wanted to: "** There is not much difference between Creekside and Lakeside. I wrote the same review for both.". Other than that, and that's probably stretching it, I don't see any reason to delete them......even though I personally think they're stupid.

Do we have a list of all courses that have ever been #1 since DGCR started.
How about all courses that have ever been in the top 10.
When and the number of weeks would also be a bonus (kind of like Billboard Music charts or the AP poll in college sports).

That would be cool. Official World Golf Ranking used to have a little blurb on their website every week "This is the 217th consecutive week at #1 for Tiger Woods, and his 253rd overall. Others to have held the #1 spot include Greg Norman (66 weeks), VJ Singh (3 weeks), etc.".

I can't find that blurb now, but it looks like they just publish a summary PDF and it's a couple years out-of-date: http://dps.endavadigital.net/owgr/doc/content/World Number Ones.pdf

 

[ru4por]

That sort of thing should be reported.

The reviews were thought through, provided specific reason as to why he felt the rating was justified. I cannot really find a reason why anyone would report the reviews. Selah is far from my style of course, but I will continue to white knight the right to have anyone write down their opinion.

 

[giles]

The reviews were thought through, provided specific reason as to why he felt the rating was justified. I cannot really find a reason why anyone would report the reviews. Selah is far from my style of course, but I will continue to white knight the right to have anyone write down their opinion.

Problem is he is wrong. It is absurd to say the courses don't have risk reward or decision making off the tee. His justification tells me he doesn't understand the concept. In regards to the water carries, a lot of them are multi shot holes, you absolutely have to decide if you want to go for the green or lay up again.

That said, I'm not going to report it, and I've reported a few this year.

 

[ru4por]

Problem is he is wrong. It is absurd to say the courses don't have risk reward or decision making off the tee. His justification tells me he doesn't understand the concept. In regards to the water carries, a lot of them are multi shot holes, you absolutely have to decide if you want to go for the green or lay up again.

That said, I'm not going to report it, and I've reported a few this year.

To each his own. I am not one to tell others that their opinions are wrong.

 

[Monocacy]

De gustibus non disputandum est.

Usually translated as "There is no disputing taste."

 

[Lazerface]

To each his own. I am not one to tell others that their opinions are wrong.

Kind of a crazy blanket rule there. I can think of many circumstances where I would, but as you say, to each his own.

 

[roggenb3]

3) I can't say definitively that I've played other flood plain routings, but I've played a lot of courses overall, and trudging through soupy fairways is one of my disc golfing pet peeves. I don't advocate rating a course based upon its worst possible conditions, but if I can expect to be playing through wetlands for 3-5 months out of the year I feel obligated to deduct from my rating. I wouldn't expect any of my personal permanent course 5's (Idlewild, Flip, Rollin Ridge, WR Jackson, Selah Lakeside, and possibly BRP in no particular order) to be so negatively affected by conditions on any given day. HB is definitely in the same league as those others design-wise, but that uncertainty keeps me from awarding the full 5 discs.

As someone above mentioned, if you really want to follow this rule, then I would think you'd have to rate Rollin Ridge below a 5. It's super wet for at least a couple months every year. We didn't even get to play it in Silver Cup this year because it was just so wet they had to move the tourney to a different course.

 

[mrclc]

That's definitely worth mentioning then, and another reason why I play courses more than once before I review them. The day I played was beautiful and dry, so I would've never mentioned RR's drainage issues.

 

[Stardoggy]

As someone above mentioned, if you really want to follow this rule, then I would think you'd have to rate Rollin Ridge below a 5. It's super wet for at least a couple months every year. We didn't even get to play it in Silver Cup this year because it was just so wet they had to move the tourney to a different course.

This is true, but to be fair, this year was one of the wettest WI summers I can remember. It rained almost every day for a decent span.

 

[Tripper]

Kind of a crazy blanket rule there. I can think of many circumstances where I would, but as you say, to each his own.

Have to disagree. If you are telling someone that their opinion is wrong, that is the height of arrogance. An opinion, by definition, is not necessarily based on fact.

o·pin·ion
əˈpinyən/Submit
noun
a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

You telling someone their opinion is wrong would be like you telling someone you like Innova discs more than Prodigy and them telling you that you are wrong.

 

[roggenb3]

This is true, but to be fair, this year was one of the wettest WI summers I can remember. It rained almost every day for a decent span.

Yeah, but you have to do this:

trudging through soupy fairways is one of my disc golfing pet peeves

For a couple months a year, regardless of the level of rain. Lots of low lying areas there, though they do the best job they can keeping it playable.

I am not advocating that RR should be below a 5 for this - I absolutely think it's a 5 - just pointing out the inconsistency in saying that soupy fairways for a couple months = <5, but RR is a "permanent 5".