What about the other 15% of random players?
What about the 100% of known players?
opcorn:
Who says NO pro's throw CE discs?
What about the 100% of known players?
opcorn:Who says NO pro's throw CE discs?
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[Other] Why has no one cloned CE yet?
- Thread starter tarel
- Start date
Have you ever wondered why there is a sticked thread to identify different runs of CE? Because it changed. In the < 2 years it was around it changed substantially from run to run. It may have had one common main ingredient, but the resulting plastics were different. So just saying something is "CE" doesn't really mean all of them are the same.
Remember Elite Z? Of course you do, they still make it. Elite Z came out later, early 2002 as I recall. At any rate, it was the Discraft "equivalent" to CE and it was in production when CE went OOP. The last runs of CE were very similar to Elite Z. When Innova announced CE was going away, I remember talking to people who thought Elite Z had to be on the way out as well. It wasn't. Seeing how Elite Z was around, Innova had to have known they could make a CEish-type plastic out of something else when they lost the supply to CE. It just seems that they were slow to find it.
Innova was going through a "rebranding" at the time. They were changing the logo, dropping the "Champion" in Innova-Champion, stuff like that. It had occurred to me that the CE to Champion switch could have just been part of that. Certainly, they could have just called Champion CE and gone on. CE was never one thing, and there have been runs of Champion plastic that were clearly better than the late CE. Pearly could have just been another phase in the "what run of CE do I have" question.
Fingerprints are funny. I have a bunch of Pro plastic discs from '98-'00 that fingerprint. I don't think it means what you think it means.
Meulen
Eagle Member
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I will explain this shortly...
Stankyjahnke
Double Eagle Member
What about the other 15% of random players?
What about the 100% of known players?
Who says NO pro's throw CE discs?
you ever seen a top 25 pro's in the bag video or video where theres a CE disc? i haven't. someone even asked paul mcbeth on these forums and he said he doesn't like them.
Pretty sure I saw a itb video with shustrick where he had a CE something. Don't remember what it was though. He top 25 enough for you?
But personally I don't think CE is that special. There is so much good plastic out there nowaday .
But personally I don't think CE is that special. There is so much good plastic out there nowaday .
Meulen
Eagle Member
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I'll just let the textbook explain it.
First, we'll talk about plasticizers. Plasticizers are chemicals that have strong solvent effects on certain plastics materials but are only added in moderate concentrations. Therefore, rather than dissolve the plastic material, the plasticizer will just cause the polymer to swell. This swelling permits increased chain movement, especially locally, which makes the plastic material softer and more flexible. This greater chain movement means that the material changes from the glassy state (hard and brittle) to the rubbery state (flexible and soft), a process called plasticization.
Next, we'll talk about plasticizer migration. The problem of plasticizer migration is especially difficult to solve. All materials will migrate to areas of lower concentration. The surface of a plasticized plastic material is usually the area of lowest concentration because the molecules on the surface evaporate or are wiped away. Small molecules generally migrate faster than large molecules, but lower weight plasticizers are generally more effective in softening the plastic material. If a heavier, less volatile plasticizer is used, it will migrate slowly to the surface and evaporate slowly, thus staying as an oily residue.
This oily residue is what many people refer to as "finger-printy". It is direct evidence that your cherished CE is losing it's plasticizer, causing the plastic to become more brittle as time passes. If you would like to test this theory, use a clean towel to buff the residue off of the disc. Once clean, go put it on the top shelf of your closet. Check the disc a month or two later. I'm fairly confident in saying that you'll find the disc is once again, "finger-printy". Hopefully this explains that condition, and why you see more CE shattering, not only in 30 degree weather, but 50 degree weather.
Source:
Strong, A. Brent. "Chapter 5." Plastics: Materials and Processing. 3rd ed. Upper Saddle River, NJ: Pearson Prentice Hall, 2006. 162-63. Print.
First, we'll talk about plasticizers. Plasticizers are chemicals that have strong solvent effects on certain plastics materials but are only added in moderate concentrations. Therefore, rather than dissolve the plastic material, the plasticizer will just cause the polymer to swell. This swelling permits increased chain movement, especially locally, which makes the plastic material softer and more flexible. This greater chain movement means that the material changes from the glassy state (hard and brittle) to the rubbery state (flexible and soft), a process called plasticization.
Next, we'll talk about plasticizer migration. The problem of plasticizer migration is especially difficult to solve. All materials will migrate to areas of lower concentration. The surface of a plasticized plastic material is usually the area of lowest concentration because the molecules on the surface evaporate or are wiped away. Small molecules generally migrate faster than large molecules, but lower weight plasticizers are generally more effective in softening the plastic material. If a heavier, less volatile plasticizer is used, it will migrate slowly to the surface and evaporate slowly, thus staying as an oily residue.
This oily residue is what many people refer to as "finger-printy". It is direct evidence that your cherished CE is losing it's plasticizer, causing the plastic to become more brittle as time passes. If you would like to test this theory, use a clean towel to buff the residue off of the disc. Once clean, go put it on the top shelf of your closet. Check the disc a month or two later. I'm fairly confident in saying that you'll find the disc is once again, "finger-printy". Hopefully this explains that condition, and why you see more CE shattering, not only in 30 degree weather, but 50 degree weather.
Source:
Strong, A. Brent. "Chapter 5." Plastics: Materials and Processing. 3rd ed. Upper Saddle River, NJ: Pearson Prentice Hall, 2006. 162-63. Print.
Last edited:
Meulen
Eagle Member
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- 507
Ha, not quite. First two paragraphs are from the book, third paragraph is my own writing.
Dude, CE was soooooo expensive when it came out. I was in high school and went to my local Bob Wards to pick up a new Archangel (hey, that disc was the bees knees back then) and I remember seeing some CE that was 15 bucks...on sale. So I would imagine it would go for 25 bucks or more nowadays. I'm from Montana, which you wouldn't imagine being a disc golf hotbed but oddly enough really is, and I never saw anyone throwing CE.
So I imagine along with all the other explanations presented, it was also a dollars and cents issue. Perhaps nowadays they would have a better shot at selling expensive plastic compounds, but it was a tough sell back then since DX was pretty much the only thing going and no one saw a need for anything else.
Just another theory though.
So I imagine along with all the other explanations presented, it was also a dollars and cents issue. Perhaps nowadays they would have a better shot at selling expensive plastic compounds, but it was a tough sell back then since DX was pretty much the only thing going and no one saw a need for anything else.
Just another theory though.
dmbrun2
Eagle Member
I asked him because I know nikko used to throw a bunch of them and has 3a big boxes full
Very educational Meulen. I took my last CE disc out of the bag a couple months ago, I told a local it made me nervous because I didn't know what the greasy crap was oozing out of the disc. He said well hasn't it always been like that I said no not for the first few years and he thought I was kidding. I used to wash my CE discs occasionally, would that eccelerate the process?
ChaseTheAce
Double Eagle Member
where are you getting your facts from?
It could possibly "accelerate" the process
No I honestly don't know.
No I honestly don't know.
Violets caddy
Double Eagle Member
I think a lot of the mystique that surrounds ce is due to its era in disc golf.
1. The first great distance drivers had recently arrived on the scene.
2. For the first time you could buy drivers that would actually last a full season and not taco on wooded courses.
3. For us old folks who have seen our molds changed, tweaked, and worn out this era is when our birds and leos still flew true to their original design.
This was the dawn of a new age in disc golf for those of us who were around so we latch onto it and hold it up on a pedistal.
Personally I like star more than I ever did ce and think people paying premium prices for ce throwers are stupid, but I get where they're coming from because I remember the golden age of disc golf
1. The first great distance drivers had recently arrived on the scene.
2. For the first time you could buy drivers that would actually last a full season and not taco on wooded courses.
3. For us old folks who have seen our molds changed, tweaked, and worn out this era is when our birds and leos still flew true to their original design.
This was the dawn of a new age in disc golf for those of us who were around so we latch onto it and hold it up on a pedistal.
Personally I like star more than I ever did ce and think people paying premium prices for ce throwers are stupid, but I get where they're coming from because I remember the golden age of disc golf
DeadEye
Double Eagle Member
I can attest to the later runs of CE being pretty much Champion material. A buddy has a CE TL, that feels exactly like my newer run CFR TL except my Champion TL is actually a little gummier.
It could possibly "accelerate" the process
No I honestly don't know.
To late to edit, I'll blame it on the Sierra Nevada Celebration Fresh Hop Ale.
ChaseTheAce
Double Eagle Member
The few CE discs in my bags are by far my favorite throwers. I think to say all CE is better than any other plastic or all CE sucks is stupid. There is a ton of variation in the plastic and between the various runs of it. Personally, I prefer the later runs of champy looking plastic for TLs and Firebirds and dislike the softer, taffy/waxy like plastic that feels like a crayon. I have yet to handle a better feeling plastic than CE. That is not to say that other companies aren't producing plastic today that is equivalent in durability, but none have successfully reproduced CE.
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