TAP or DOP instead of Par?

[DiscNutt123]

I thought it was about consistency, uniformity and making things simpler for commoners to understand

They still score the game the same, whether its 4 year olds playing teeball or the MLB. If you can't understand the reasons why they use aluminum vs. wood, then you have some other issues to deal with...

 

[sneakytiki]

You have me feeling like a dumbass with this post since this got me thinking about why I have never used the baseball to slow pitch softball analogy when comparing BG to DG!!??!!

I don't like that analogy at all. DG is NOT the slow pitch softball version of big boy ball golf. I reject it.

I'd say the slow pitch softball version of ball golf would be playing it with potato guns to fire the golf balls.

 

[Dave242]

Now, on the Par discussion, it's really a matter of if we want "Par" to mean you played flawlessly, or if we want "Birdie" to mean you played flawlessly. And even then, I've gotten birdies that weren't flawless (hit a gap I wasn't aiming at, got a good kick, etc.) So really we know if we're beating the course, or if it's beating us, regardless of what our score says in relation to Par.

Right here you capture exactly how I feel about scoring as it relates to me. Par in whatever form it takes does not tell me how I should score.....or play a hole.....or feel after playing the hole.

I look at the hole, size it up based on my skills, and do my best to give me the chance to get the lowest score available to me. And I know after completing the hole if I accomplished my goal or not. The after my round is completed, Course Par (correctly defined), SSA, SSE, etc will then tell me my relative suckitude when compared to an expert.

This is why it perplexes me that some people get so emotional over the topic when it is discussed.

 

[mashnut]

You have me feeling like a dumbass with this post since this got me thinking about why I have never used the baseball to slow pitch softball analogy when comparing BG to DG!!??!!

For starters, just look at the pitcher in baseball: the most analyzed and important and skilled person on the field (and among the highest paid). In slow pitch, the pitchers do not even count for squat (provided they can lob the ball over the plate). That's gotta be a good starting point for something.....for some other thread probably.

Minor off topic quibble, but there's a huge difference between a slow pitch pitcher who just lobs it over the plate and one who really has command over different arc and spin. It's nothing like the difference a baseball pitcher makes, but it's more relevant than you're making it out to be.

I do like that comparison though, I've seen it used in the discussion over sponsors and TV time. Tons of people play softball, but nobody watches it on tv, similar to how disc golf is growing enormously as a participation sport but not as a spectator sport.

 

[Dave242]

I don't like that analogy at all. DG is NOT the slow pitch softball version of big boy ball golf. I reject it.

I'd say the slow pitch softball version of ball golf would be playing it with potato guns to fire the golf balls.

Didn't mean to insult to your machismo.....sorry.

My point is that they are both valid sports, based on very similar concepts. YET, a very important/central/core aspect of one is different (absent) in Softball......and yet that does not really matter. At least I never hear people saying softball sux because the role of the pitcher is different.

But to pour a little cold water on you manliness, you gotta admit that BG is harder to play than DG for the simple fact that many errors in arm and body motion are magnified (doubled?) when swinging a 3' stick at a ball.

 

[disc qualified]

last thing and then i'll leave it alone

a home run to left at fenway is 310'

a home run to center at houston's minute maid field is 436'

both are home runs

players who have more at bats in those respective ball parks stand a good chance of having considerably different stats (not just home runs, but hits vs outs, rbi's, etc)

should we propose uniformity for all baseball outfields so that all stats mean relatively the same thing?

 

[sneakytiki]

Didn't mean to insult to your machismo.....sorry.

My point is that they are both valid sports, based on very similar concepts. YET, a very important/central/core aspect of one is different (absent) in Softball......and yet that does not really matter. At least I never hear people saying softball sux because the role of the pitcher is different.

But to pour a little cold water on you manliness, you gotta admit that BG is harder to play than DG for the simple fact that many errors in arm and body motion are magnified (doubled?) when swinging a 3' stick at a ball.

Hahaha I don't know if I would use the word Machismo... almost all the slow pitch softball players I know (including myself) are male, and I don't see softball as less than worthy of a man's time. It is fun as hell to get together, drink some beers and try to crush a slow moving object with a bat.

Disc golf deserves more than that analogy though. While it is easier to pick up than ball golf, it is just as hard to master. There isn't any serious professional slow pitch softball league, because it is a casual form of another sport. I think DG as a sport of its own, not a casual version of ball golf, and THAT is why I reject the analogy.

 

[DavidSauls]

Isn't anyone going to come on and defend the current system of par as the best we could possibly have?

 

[coupe]

A number of people have said that regardless what Par is, you are really just playing against the other people on the course.

But I disagree, golf is about beating the course, not others. That's why we can still enjoy it when we go out by ourselves. If you beat the course, you often beat other people playing the course as well, but you weren't playing defense or something that kept them from doing well.

The purpose of a competitive event involving more than one competitor is to measure one's mastery of a skill set against that of others: otherwise, there would be no reason or need to keep or compare scores. So when you're playing by yourself, you MAY be playing against the course (but then, why keep score), but when you're playing in a structured competition, you're playing ON the course AGAINST other competitors.

 

[Dave242]

Disc golf deserves more than that analogy though. While it is easier to pick up than ball golf, it is just as hard to master. There isn't any serious professional slow pitch softball league, because it is a casual form of another sport. I think DG as a sport of its own, not a casual version of ball golf, and THAT is why I reject the analogy.

Again, the analogy is a comparison of some similarities and some differences......not all.

I also reject comparing those aspects as you do......but that does not invalidate the analogy.

BTW, sorry to inform you but there is no serious professional disc golf league either.

 

[coupe]

Isn't anyone going to come on and defend the current system of par as the best we could possibly have?

I suspect that most people don't care enough to get exercised over whether or not it, or any other system of defining par, is the best we could possibly have, because we don't hand out style points for margin of victory, and you don't get bonus points for every (x) throws you finish under "par" (however you chose to define "par"): at the end of the day/round/tournament, the only thing that matters, from the standpoint of the event, is, either you beat the other guy(s) or you didn't.

 

[Dave242]

Isn't anyone going to come on and defend the current system of par as the best we could possibly have?

Favorite snide remark of the thread.....so far. :clap:

btw, that was my hope when I framed this discussion as I did. At least something is working in a yet another par discussion.

I suspect that most people don't care enough to get exercised over whether or not it, or any other system of defining par, is the best we could possibly have, because we don't hand out style points for margin of victory, and you don't get bonus points for every (x) throws you finish under "par" (however you chose to define "par"): at the end of the day/round/tournament, the only thing that matters, from the standpoint of the event, is, either you beat the other guy(s) or you didn't.

Maybe you've been reading here for a long time, but your join date and this comment would suggest otherwise. People get all torqued on the monthly (quarterly?) occurrence of the "what is par?" threads.

 

[sneakytiki]

Again, the analogy is a comparison of some similarities and some differences......not all.

I also reject comparing those aspects as you do......but that does not invalidate the analogy.

BTW, sorry to inform you but there is no serious professional disc golf league either.

Well maybe not "serious".... but compared to slow pitch softball, sure. How many slow pitch softball players can rake several thousand a year through playing?

 

[Dave242]

can't be much less than 100 fewer than do in DG.

 

[DavidSauls]

I suspect that most people don't care enough to get exercised over whether or not it, or any other system of defining par, is the best we could possibly have, because we don't hand out style points for margin of victory, and you don't get bonus points for every (x) throws you finish under "par" (however you chose to define "par"): at the end of the day/round/tournament, the only thing that matters, from the standpoint of the event, is, either you beat the other guy(s) or you didn't.

Agreed.

Not to mislead anyone---I'm also among those who don't think par is very important.

I just think, if we're going to have it at all, it would be nice to have a better version. Not important, but nice, with a few minor benefits that would go along with it. And since we're not changing things here, it's interesting to kick around the possibilities, and pros and cons of each.

 

[sneakytiki]

can't be much less than 100 fewer than do in DG.

So, none. haha.

 

[DavidSauls]

Favorite snide remark of the thread.....so far. :clap:

I was just tired of tossing the ball up and hitting it, and wanted someone to pitch one in.

I was also tired of the bad baseball/softball analogies.

 

[sneakytiki]

I was just tired of tossing the ball up and hitting it, and wanted someone to pitch one in.

I was also tired of the bad baseball/softball analogies.

Hahaha. Right? It's like the discussion was rounding third and tripped on the bag.

 

[coupe]

Maybe you've been reading here for a long time, but your join date and this comment would suggest otherwise. People get all torqued on the monthly (quarterly?) occurrence of the "what is par?" threads.

No, an EXTREMELY SMALL MINORITY of posters--typically the same ones in every thread on the topic--get "all torqued up" over the definition of par.

Take this thread: THREE of the 48 posters (out of 42,127 registered MB users) are responsible for over half (86/157) posts to date, and more than half of the posters in the thread are one-and-done.

 

[Stardoggy]

"While I think TaP is a fine system, I doubt any change will ever be made to Par." - The Stableford scoring system in golf