2016 Am Worlds - Madison, Wi

[dobbins66]

Jerry, regardless of the non-pdga member loop hole, the guy took cash at pdga events for 8 years, even won the German Open and got 2nd in the European Masters, both Pro Master PDGA events. How is that fair? We can take this conversation to pm, don't want to get this thread locked. I'll let everyone know what how the PDGA is going to handle this.

I agree, He should not have been allowed in. But lack of point criteria and earlier registration period made it possible for him to signup free of the mess we went through. Let me know what you find out.

 

[CraigWesnofske]

:doh:

 

[lyleoross]

First time I've read the eligibility. If, as it looks, MK took cash in Europe at PDGA events, he is ineligible. It will take the PDGA a while to sort it out, simply because they always do their research to make sure they don't make a mistake, but it seems pretty clear cut... unless we don't know the whole story. Always a possibility.

 

[JC17393]

First time I've read the eligibility. If, as it looks, MK took cash in Europe at PDGA events, he is ineligible. It will take the PDGA a while to sort it out, simply because they always do their research to make sure they don't make a mistake, but it seems pretty clear cut... unless we don't know the whole story. Always a possibility.

If he took the cash as a non-member, that really isn't the case. The PDGA doesn't track players who are not members, nor do they really back-track new member's careers to find past events (unless within the same calendar year as joining or at the request of the player). Since they don't track non-members, what he did before he became a member is irrelevant. There were no red flags to notice as far as they were concerned.

Is it fair that such a "loophole" seems to exist? No. But what can the PDGA really do short of either making all PDGA events members only (with no "temp" memberships via non-member fees) or requiring non-members to identify themselves with consistent forms of ID at every event they play? How else should they try to distinguish one John Smith from another John Smith from another John Smith (and not confuse them with any of the seven John Smiths who are members whose member number might have been omitted accidentally from a report)?

Here's the big thing with this particular player, or really any case similar to this...he was on the registration list for months prior to the tournament being played. From what I gather from the last few pages, someone was "tipped off" to this guy and that's what started the discussion here (and in the deleted thread), so was the one with the tip aware of the player's history before the event? If so, why wait until after he wins to speak up? Why not contact the PDGA and inquire about the guy's eligibility before he flies into Wisconsin and plays the tournament? As I said, the PDGA office has no reason to question the guy's eligibility...why not give them one so they can be proactive about it rather than get all sour grapes about it after the fact?

Bottom line is they're not going to take the title away from him. And if they force him to go pro, it means nothing because where he plays, there's really no amateur division anyway. That's guaranteed to be the reason he's never played as an Am other than at Worlds...few if any opportunities to do so unless he travels to North America.

 

[CraigWesnofske]

According to this http://www.pdga.com/player/77622, he didn't have the points to register in the first place. I also gather he has played Winthrop sometime. Do European or overseas players not have to qualify at all or maintain amateur requirements? This is just bizarre.

 

[JC17393]

According to this http://www.pdga.com/player/77622, he didn't have the points to register in the first place. I also gather he has played Winthrop sometime. Do European or overseas players not have to qualify at all or maintain amateur requirements? This is just bizarre.

Qualification criteria #4. Been that way for international players for some time now.

 

[CraigWesnofske]

So anybody who wants to get into World's without having to play Ticketmaster Disc Golf Registration just has to register as a foreign player. Nice loophole for all of those that got shut out this year. Who needs the sticker and dog tag anyway!:doh:

 

[CraigWesnofske]

For clarity, I am talking about renewing your membership with a foreign address, regardless of whether you live there or not.

 

[DirtyMeathook]

If he took the cash as a non-member, that really isn't the case. The PDGA doesn't track players who are not members, nor do they really back-track new member's careers to find past events (unless within the same calendar year as joining or at the request of the player). Since they don't track non-members, what he did before he became a member is irrelevant. There were no red flags to notice as far as they were concerned.

Is it fair that such a "loophole" seems to exist? No. But what can the PDGA really do short of either making all PDGA events members only (with no "temp" memberships via non-member fees) or requiring non-members to identify themselves with consistent forms of ID at every event they play? How else should they try to distinguish one John Smith from another John Smith from another John Smith (and not confuse them with any of the seven John Smiths who are members whose member number might have been omitted accidentally from a report)?

Here's the big thing with this particular player, or really any case similar to this...he was on the registration list for months prior to the tournament being played. From what I gather from the last few pages, someone was "tipped off" to this guy and that's what started the discussion here (and in the deleted thread), so was the one with the tip aware of the player's history before the event? If so, why wait until after he wins to speak up? Why not contact the PDGA and inquire about the guy's eligibility before he flies into Wisconsin and plays the tournament? As I said, the PDGA office has no reason to question the guy's eligibility...why not give them one so they can be proactive about it rather than get all sour grapes about it after the fact?

Bottom line is they're not going to take the title away from him. And if they force him to go pro, it means nothing because where he plays, there's really no amateur division anyway. That's guaranteed to be the reason he's never played as an Am other than at Worlds...few if any opportunities to do so unless he travels to North America.

They should ask during the PDGA sign up process "have you ever accepted cash in a PDGA event." They should also ask the same thing during the event registration. Not disclosing is one thing, and it is still shady, but far fewer people are willing to actively lie.

 

[lyleoross]

They should ask during the PDGA sign up process "have you ever accepted cash in a PDGA event." They should also ask the same thing during the event registration. Not disclosing is one thing, and it is still shady, but far fewer people are willing to actively lie.

I'd think it's a lot easier even than this. They should have a simple relational database with everyone who's ever cashed as any PDGA event, by name, and that can be balanced against entrants to Am Worlds. If you get a hit you look. You could even write a simple program that looks at several criteria, Name, location, PDGA number, age. Two or more hits means they get pulled and looked at. Clearly, they didn't do this, or if they did, there is some mitigating situation we don't know about.

 

[lyleoross]

They should ask during the PDGA sign up process "have you ever accepted cash in a PDGA event." They should also ask the same thing during the event registration. Not disclosing is one thing, and it is still shady, but far fewer people are willing to actively lie.

Gonna disagree on one thing, the older I've gotten, the less shocked I am when someone lies, directly or otherwise. In theory, we have some disposition against it and I agree there are a lot who won't, but there is a rather large pool of people that are quite comfy with it. Snark on, some call them marketers, snark off.

 

[lyleoross]

If he took the cash as a non-member, that really isn't the case. The PDGA doesn't track players who are not members, nor do they really back-track new member's careers to find past events (unless within the same calendar year as joining or at the request of the player). Since they don't track non-members, what he did before he became a member is irrelevant. There were no red flags to notice as far as they were concerned.

Is it fair that such a "loophole" seems to exist? No. But what can the PDGA really do short of either making all PDGA events members only (with no "temp" memberships via non-member fees) or requiring non-members to identify themselves with consistent forms of ID at every event they play? How else should they try to distinguish one John Smith from another John Smith from another John Smith (and not confuse them with any of the seven John Smiths who are members whose member number might have been omitted accidentally from a report)?

Here's the big thing with this particular player, or really any case similar to this...he was on the registration list for months prior to the tournament being played. From what I gather from the last few pages, someone was "tipped off" to this guy and that's what started the discussion here (and in the deleted thread), so was the one with the tip aware of the player's history before the event? If so, why wait until after he wins to speak up? Why not contact the PDGA and inquire about the guy's eligibility before he flies into Wisconsin and plays the tournament? As I said, the PDGA office has no reason to question the guy's eligibility...why not give them one so they can be proactive about it rather than get all sour grapes about it after the fact?

Bottom line is they're not going to take the title away from him. And if they force him to go pro, it means nothing because where he plays, there's really no amateur division anyway. That's guaranteed to be the reason he's never played as an Am other than at Worlds...few if any opportunities to do so unless he travels to North America.

The PDGA may not have looked, but what the criteria that Burnin loaded says is that if you cash at a PDGA tiered event, you are ineligible. The first time I looked I came away with what you did, that you had to be a member, but a closer look doesn't mention anything other than cashing. I will check again, but I'm pretty sure that is correct.

 

[lyleoross]

As an aside, lawyers look at language like this, and they look at the specifics. In my job I see this often enough. If it is stated openly without a specific link to PDGA membership, that implies that the intent is for any and all players. That is, if you cash at any PDGA event, no matter what your status, you are ineligable to play as an Am unless you request dispensation by the PDGA rules laid out elsewhere.

 

[JC17393]

As an aside, lawyers look at language like this, and they look at the specifics. In my job I see this often enough. If it is stated openly without a specific link to PDGA membership, that implies that the intent is for any and all players. That is, if you cash at any PDGA event, no matter what your status, you are ineligable to play as an Am unless you request dispensation by the PDGA rules laid out elsewhere.

My point is that if they don't have the means to track individual non-member players (and verify identities for each of those non-members), they can't really enforce the cash/no cash rules on non-members. Even if the intent is for the rule to apply to them as well as the easily tracked, uniquely-identified members of the organization, without the means, it can't really be done.

The next question is whether or not this sort of thing is epidemic enough to warrant dedicating resources to creating an adequate system to track all participants in PDGA events, member or not, in order to "fix" the problem. Personally, I doubt very much it is anywhere near a big enough problem to be much of a priority at the moment so I wouldn't hold my breath expecting any action on it whatsoever.

 

[burnin4]

Hey guys, just to make a few points clear....I was contacted by a fellow pdga member 2 days ago/Sunday, he informed me that he had been playing with MK since the 90's in PDGA Pro divisions, and knew he had been accepting cash for the past decade. He even took it upon himself to reach out to Brian Graham and tell him what he knew. I had no idea of MK's extensive and decorated Pro history in Europe until 2 days ago. I then began to research pdga events and within a few minutes found this....

Deutsche Disc Meisterschaft B Tier
Sept 22nd-23 2012 Eberswalde, Germany
1st Place Pro Masters $194
http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/13065

European Championship XA Tier
August 28th-31st 2008 Sohnstetten, Germany
2nd Place Pro Masters $425
http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/7609#MPM

21st Berlin Open B Tier
Jun 21st-22nd 2008 Berlin, Germany
4th Place Open $140
http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/7669#MPO

Deutsche Disc Golf Meisterschaften C Tier
May 1st-2nd 2010 Dassel, Germany
1st Place Pro Masters $96
http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/10402

1st Big Hill King C Tier
Oct 9th-10th 2010 Osterschwang, Germany
1st Place Pro Masters $109
http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/10408

4th Ostpark Open B Tier
May 23-34th 2009 Russelsheim, Germany
2nd Place, Pro Masters $212
http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/9148

Albuch Classic 2009 B Tier
Aug 1st-2nd 2009 Sohnstetten, Germany
2nd Place Pro Masters $142
http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/8943

Deutsche Discogolf Meisterschaft B Tier
Sept 27-29th 2013 Wolfenbuttel, Germany
2nd Place Pro Masters $68
http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/14819#MPO

Potsdam Open C Tier
July 26-27 2008 Potsdam, Germany
5th Place Open $87
http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/7786#MPO

European Championships XA Tier
Aug 26-28 2010 Pas-de-Calais, France
4th Place Pro Masters $352
http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/9721

Yes, MK's cash earnings came before he was a current/supporting member of the pdga. HOWEVER, the big question is if the PDGA will determine if their definition of an "Amateur" only applies if the player is a current pdga member.



Will the PDGA honor their Invitation Criteria for Amateur status based on if a player is current, or if the player is truly am Amateur and has/has not accepted cash. In this case the PDGA does not have to do much research, the details are overwhelming.

 

[lyleoross]

My point is that if they don't have the means to track individual non-member players (and verify identities for each of those non-members), they can't really enforce the cash/no cash rules on non-members. Even if the intent is for the rule to apply to them as well as the easily tracked, uniquely-identified members of the organization, without the means, it can't really be done.

The next question is whether or not this sort of thing is epidemic enough to warrant dedicating resources to creating an adequate system to track all participants in PDGA events, member or not, in order to "fix" the problem. Personally, I doubt very much it is anywhere near a big enough problem to be much of a priority at the moment so I wouldn't hold my breath expecting any action on it whatsoever.

I think burning made the point, but to reiterate, if he can find a paper trail of this guy's attendance in PDGA events with a twenty second search, then the PDGA should be able to also. Even if they didn't, it can be seen post-humously that the guy broke the rules, as laid out in their own documentation.

As I wrote above, a very simple tool for looking for this kind of thing can be set up fairly cheaply and solves the problem.

I think your question about prevalence is a good one. Resources are scarce and if this is the only case ever, well, why spend too much on it?

Here is a more interesting question to my mind. If you agree that the guy broke the rules, and you think he did it knowingly, what are the consequences if any? Is it enough to transfer the title? Should he punished in other ways?

 

[Cgkdisc]

As I understand the PDGA amateur rules and how they have been applied over the years:

A. Current PDGA members with Am Status are allowed to win cash:
1. In any type of disc sports competition, sanctioned or not, before they are members
2. Before being officially reinstated as an Amateur, having cashed as PDGA pros for many years.
3. In non-sanctioned events and leagues
4. In PDGA sanctioned leagues
5. In side games like Ace pools, CTPs and skins

B. Current PDGA Ams cannot win cash in PDGA sanctioned tournaments including doubles

Which of these rules if any did the new Advanced Master World Champ break?
I suspect most if not all current Am PDGA members reading this, or you know, have won cash in one or more of the allowable ways from A.1 to A.5.

 

[JC17393]

Here is a more interesting question to my mind. If you agree that the guy broke the rules, and you think he did it knowingly, what are the consequences if any? Is it enough to transfer the title? Should he punished in other ways?

I don't necessarily agree that he broke the rules. Skirted the spirit of the rules, maybe, but I don't believe he broke them. As I've said, when there's no apparatus in place to enforce rules on non-members (or actions of current members when they were non-members), do the rules actually apply to them in practice? And if that's the case, why start now with this guy? Even if he signed up Am knowing that he'd cashed in Pro in the past, he did so with the understanding that he was allowed to do it since no one had ever been stopped from doing it before. I have a hard time believing there was anything sinister in his actions at all.

The worst I can see the PDGA doing to him is maybe forcing him to change his classification to Pro. And considering, based on the evidence of all those past events he "cashed" in, that there is no Am division for him to play when he's back at home, I'd bet good money he's not turning down cash the next time the opportunity comes along and he'd be turning pro anyway.

Also, I don't 100% trust that because it shows him as having been paid that means he actually accepted the cash at those events where he was a non-member. Most likely he did, but it goes back to record keeping for non-members. If the TD didn't believe the guy needed to protect his am status (as a non-member), he may not have reported that he'd turned it down or accepted merch in lieu. Or even if he did report it correctly, perhaps the people processing the report at the PDGA didn't bother to notate that he declined because he's a non-member and they didn't believe he had an am status to maintain in the first place.

 

[lyleoross]

I don't necessarily agree that he broke the rules. Skirted the spirit of the rules, maybe, but I don't believe he broke them. As I've said, when there's no apparatus in place to enforce rules on non-members (or actions of current members when they were non-members), do the rules actually apply to them in practice? And if that's the case, why start now with this guy? Even if he signed up Am knowing that he'd cashed in Pro in the past, he did so with the understanding that he was allowed to do it since no one had ever been stopped from doing it before. I have a hard time believing there was anything sinister in his actions at all.

The worst I can see the PDGA doing to him is maybe forcing him to change his classification to Pro. And considering, based on the evidence of all those past events he "cashed" in, that there is no Am division for him to play when he's back at home, I'd bet good money he's not turning down cash the next time the opportunity comes along and he'd be turning pro anyway.

Also, I don't 100% trust that because it shows him as having been paid that means he actually accepted the cash at those events where he was a non-member. Most likely he did, but it goes back to record keeping for non-members. If the TD didn't believe the guy needed to protect his am status (as a non-member), he may not have reported that he'd turned it down or accepted merch in lieu. Or even if he did report it correctly, perhaps the people processing the report at the PDGA didn't bother to notate that he declined because he's a non-member and they didn't believe he had an am status to maintain in the first place.

I can't argue whether or not he took money, and clearly, if he didn't, there is no issue. You have three situations, the rules, and the intent of the rules, and how the rules are applied. The rules, as written, say what he did isn't allowed. They don't specify player status or membership - as written, he is ineligible (I can't know if that was accidental, or on purpose). If Burning went to court, this is what his lawyer would argue.

The intent of the rules, or how the PDGA intended the rules to be, is defined above by Chuck. By their intent, what MK did is legal. He wasn't a member therefore, what he did is okay. At this point, now that he is a member, if he accepts cash, he can't play Am Worlds again.

Application of the rule is tough, but we have what Chuck gave us. If the PDGA has consistently applied the rules according to Chuck's interpretation, and Chuck probably has a very good feel for the PDGA's intent, then Burnin is out of luck. If ever, even once, they applied them according to how they're written, Burning wins in a court of law.

As you've pointed out a couple of times, the PDGA isn't concerned with non-members. I might argue they should be, but honestly the incidence is going to be tiny. Annoying, indeed, maddening for Burnin, but that is the way it goes. You can argue that MK set out to do this, but establishing that kind of intent is very hard, and way out of the scope of the PDGA. Even if he did, something I find unlikely, per Chuck's definition of PDGA intent, he's allowed to.

 

[lyleoross]

As I understand the PDGA amateur rules and how they have been applied over the years:

A. Current PDGA members with Am Status are allowed to win cash:
1. In any type of disc sports competition, sanctioned or not, before they are members
2. Before being officially reinstated as an Amateur, having cashed as PDGA pros for many years.
3. In non-sanctioned events and leagues
4. In PDGA sanctioned leagues
5. In side games like Ace pools, CTPs and skins

B. Current PDGA Ams cannot win cash in PDGA sanctioned tournaments including doubles

Which of these rules if any did the new Advanced Master World Champ break?
I suspect most if not all current Am PDGA members reading this, or you know, have won cash in one or more of the allowable ways from A.1 to A.5.

To be clear, the only one that matters is not here. That would be the one defined in the PDGA rules. If you've taken cash in a PDGA tiered event. I honestly don't know how you would define a PDGA tiered event, if that includes PDGA leagues then it's not okay. If others have done that, then it ain't okay. It may happen, but it is against their rules as written. All of the others aren't written in the rules so by definition they are okay. I am accepting the notion of reinstatement as okay, but that is defined elsewhere, and I already acknowledged it.