How does late turn work?

[tampora]

How can this shot be explained: a low, line drive that turns (not fades) near the end of its flight.

I know it exists, as I've made it happen on occasion, but I have no idea how it can do what it does. The reason I've heard for discs turning over is due to high-speed-spin in the early part of their flight (before friction has had a chance to slow it down). What then, could be the reason for a disc turning over near the end of its flight, long after it has decreased from its highest spin speed?

 

[JNichols]

I am assuming you are referring to a Backhand throw, yes?

 

[RobA]

How can this shot be explained: a low, line drive that turns (not fades) near the end of its flight.

I know it exists, as I've made it happen on occasion, but I have no idea how it can do what it does. The reason I've heard for discs turning over is due to high-speed-spin in the early part of their flight (before friction has had a chance to slow it down). What then, could be the reason for a disc turning over near the end of its flight, long after it has decreased from its highest spin speed?

I have seen it happen with hyzer flips.

 

[rocthecourse]

A hyzer-flip turn over might be what you have seen. With the right disc you release on a hyzer and it will flip up and stay flat for a little bit before it starts a slow turn over, and if it is low enough it won't have time to fade back at the end.

My favorite disc for this shot is a beat in JLS in the Millennium plastic.

 

[Will Burke]

Typically when I see people throw this shot its a hyzer flip that turns through out the entire shot. Only appears straight because the axis it's turning on is changing. A very hard shot to replicate consistently because of the potential to turn and burn or not flip enough.
^ beat me to it

 

[Pbmercil]

Typically when I see people throw this shot its a hyzer flip that turns through out the entire shot. Only appears straight because the axis it's turning on is changing. A very hard shot to replicate consistently because of the potential to turn and burn or not flip enough.
^ beat me to it

Yup. Watch Paul mcbeth to see a clinic on that shot. Keeping the nose down helps keep it from fading as well.

 

[wolfmandragon]

According to David Feldberg, it is due to a multiangle throw. In reality, you are throwing the disc on a slight anhyzer but with the nose off line. Due to inertia, the disc will fly straight until the gyroscopic progression has more power than the vector(straight line direction and speed) the disc is flying on.
This is entirely a different flight where the nose is in-line with the angle of the flight; Gyroscopic progression will overcome the inertia of the flight vector much earlier there.
How to throw it is much harder the the physics of the flight. I have only be able to do it with a understable midrange from a standstill. When the hand is over the lead foot, the angle of the disc changes and the discs is released only most like a push. Hard to describe, harder to do.

 

[slowplastic]

Typically when I see people throw this shot its a hyzer flip that turns through out the entire shot. Only appears straight because the axis it's turning on is changing. A very hard shot to replicate consistently because of the potential to turn and burn or not flip enough.
^ beat me to it

This is what I usually get too. If I have a disc that has significant turn, I'm going to hyzer flip it rather than throw it from flat. So I release it hyzer angle with the intent of a straight shot, it powers forward straight while flipping up, and it keeps turning. At this point it's at least halfway through its flight, so additional turn starts it drifting to the right...so it looks like a late turn.

I do have some discs that tend to turn later than others though. For example I have a flat star Destroyer that I feel turns later into its flight than a domey Gstar that I have, which tends to show its turn almost immediately. I have no idea what characteristics of the disc make that happen.

 

[Fraser]

RobA, rocthecourse, Will Burke, Pbmercil, wolfmandragon (to an extent) and slowplastic are right. I'm not sure wolfmandragon has the physics correct and it isn't necessarily a multi-angle throw. You shouldn't have to change your throwing plane (multi-angle throw) to create this shot. It's just a level throw with a hyzer release. Now for my take on the science of it. I could be completely wrong but I think it is more about the spin that is applied to the disc and not the speed in which you throw. In my mind, spin stabilizes a disc which causes the disc to flip from a hyzer and fly straight early in it's flight. The more spin you can create, the later the disc deviates (turn) from straight. More speed and less spin causes a disc to turnover faster. It's a balancing act of throwing a turnover (not an anhyzer) with a lot of spin.

 

[wolfmandragon]

RobA, rocthecourse, Will Burke, Pbmercil, wolfmandragon (to an extent) and slowplastic are right. I'm not sure wolfmandragon has the physics correct and it isn't necessarily a multi-angle throw. You shouldn't have to change your throwing plane (multi-angle throw) to create this shot. It's just a level throw with a hyzer release. Now for my take on the science of it. I could be completely wrong but I think it is more about the spin that is applied to the disc and not the speed in which you throw. In my mind, spin stabilizes a disc which causes the disc to flip from a hyzer and fly straight early in it's flight. The more spin you can create, the later the disc deviates (turn) from straight. More speed and less spin causes a disc to turnover faster. It's a balancing act of throwing a turnover (not an anhyzer) with a lot of spin.

Sorry, wall of text....there is a link to a video at the bottom, if you want to jump ahead.

Gyroscopic precession means that the disc is turned 90 degrees from where lift is applied to the disc. This is why helicopters have a tail rotor, it is to counter-act the gyroscopic precession.
On a 'perfectly' stable disc, then the lift is dead center, therefore the speed of the spin is less important(think Tee-bird or Volt). On an understandable disc, the lift is on the nose to the disc, therefore the 90 degree rules says that the disc turns in the direction of the spin.
For an understable disc, when the nose is off line from the vector of the disc, less lift is created. As drag moves the nose in line with the vector of the disc, more lift is created, therefore the late turn.
This is the same reason throwing an overstable disc nose down, delays the fade kicking in.

Not all discs are creating their main lift with the flat rim portion. Some discs create lift from the flight plate or even vortexes. These will not have the same flight characteristics of an understable disc, which does create lift from the rim portion of the disc.

The multiangle throw that Feldberg speaks of, is nothing more than a replicable way of achieving the correct nose angle to disc vector to amount of spin needed for the late turn.
As far as it goes, the disc can be thrown on a single plane and still do the late turn, it will probably fail more often than not though. It like throwing an anhyzer with only changing the bend of the elbow; more than likely, the throw will be off.

Sometimes seeing makes for sense than reading. Watch this video on how gyroscopic precession affects controlling an helicopter.

 

[rocthecourse]

Now for my take on the science of it. I could be completely wrong but I think it is more about the spin that is applied to the disc and not the speed in which you throw. In my mind, spin stabilizes a disc which causes the disc to flip from a hyzer and fly straight early in it's flight. The more spin you can create, the later the disc deviates (turn) from straight. More speed and less spin causes a disc to turnover faster. It's a balancing act of throwing a turnover (not an anhyzer) with a lot of spin.

My take on the science is that the it is a standard hyzer-flip(throwing a disc faster the speed it would be stable at) but you are throwing a disc that is kind of stable(as the disc gets close to flat it turns less since it wants to fly flat.) As the disc flies the amount of spin will decrease(at least as a percentage of speed/spin,) less spin means the disc is less stable and so it starts to turn right again.

That explanation is probably far from perfect. But it does explain why certain discs do the shot better, beat JLS, beat Comet, they have good stability and glide which means they can stay in the air longer.

Heck I might even be completely wrong, though I do use this shot on a regular basis on my home course.

 

[Disczealot]

Info gathered from this thread.

My understanding is that spin keeps a disc from fading or turning, more spin equals a straighter flight.

A disc could go straight and turn at the end of the flight if the spin has reduced enough when the disc still has enough speed to turn.

This probably isn't an easy thing to do. You would have to use a disc with very specific ratings and have the form that can produce more speed with less spin, and it would only do this at a very specific distance.

I would imagine it would require an understable disc that has and some LSS seasoned out of it.

Edit: I just reread the OP. - To clarify further, the speed a disc is thrown, not the spin, will make it fly understable.

 

[Fraser]

Thanks for the explanation wolf. I guess I was a little sleep deprived. What I was trying to say was essentially what roc just mentioned a couple of posts up. I just know there is a ton of debate on the physics which I don't know much of.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Im always perplexed by these throws. Had an ion do this downhill the other day and again yesterday with a wave for one of my longest throws ever. As i thought the LSS was going to kick in the discs banked very slightly to the right with a straight FW finish. Its such a cool looking shot! Thanks for the geeky insight on here.

 

[DanJon]

You need something flippy.

Throw it with some hyzer and put a lot of spin on it.

It will slowly flip up and keep turning til it runs out of juice.

 

[slowplastic]

Im always perplexed by these throws. Had an ion do this downhill the other day and again yesterday with a wave for one of my longest throws ever. As i thought the LSS was going to kick in the discs banked very slightly to the right with a straight FW finish. Its such a cool looking shot! Thanks for the geeky insight on here.

I think some of it is from what we expect also. If I normally see my disc hold straight for the last 1/3 of flight and then fade at the very end, I grow to assume that will happen. If I really get ahold of it, or maybe if there's a little breeze, I expect that to happen but instead it holds the turn a little longer. From expectations of it holding straight or going left, any deviation to the right all of the sudden seems like a massive change.

It's like when a beginner is releasing slightly hyzer and they don't realize, or if you throw a hyzer flip from like 5 degree of angle...you know exactly what is happening the whole time and can watch and almost "feel" the HSS of the disc. But a beginner can watch you do that throw and would barely notice the flip from that mild of an angle. Our expectations can really amplify if something is different.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

You need something flippy.

Throw it with some hyzer and put a lot of spin on it.

It will slowly flip up and keep turning til it runs out of juice.

I think the OP is referring to something a little different than just a conventional hyzer flip turnover line. One of the longest throws I've seen in person at BRP did this late turn and almost lifted up in the air into the tailwind as it flew just short of 550'. It was a beat to hell DX leopard :\ It didn't keep turning just went straight from release until the very late part of the flight which was truly crazy to watch transition into the LSS sail it like a kite.

 

[tampora]

I think a 'few instances' of the phenomena are wind-related. Case in point: if we ever need a late turn, it's likely to be at a narrowing of our throwing lane. When air current goes through a narrowing, it can speed up. So, a couple examples of late turn may be a result of the disc entering a region of increased headwind at the bottleneck, allowing the HSS to be overcome; resulting in the disc turning over.

 

[wolfmandragon]

A late turn-over is not because of the wind, that would be an accident. Here, let one of the best show how to do a late turn-over. Start about 14 minutes in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc0rRcLo_JE

 

[Kodachrome]

you can throw a hyzerflip to turnover shot or you can throw a flat shot that turns late. nothing to do with wind. the former is easier, the latter is better imo. you can use a neutral disc instead and it's more controllable.

what i'm really trying to tell you is that you need to throw comets.