Seems like licensing fees, insurance and liability would come into play with these additions.
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Fee threshold for success of private courses.
- Thread starter Doofenshmirtz
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Seems like licensing fees, insurance and liability would come into play with these additions.
jrawk
* Ace Member *
Nobody seems to care when that 15% goes to local charities. So then when I ask them if they'd rather their money stay within the sport or go to a local charity they almost always say within the sport.
Theoretically. A C-tier with what would be very low payouts would have a tough time filling to 72, especially periodically during the year. Knock $100 off for sanctioning & insurance, another $150 for PDGA fees (unless you further reduce the payout), and more for any other expenses.
It would have to be an incredible course, or in an area with lots of tournament-playing disc golfers.
jrawk
* Ace Member *
Yes, as a TD, I fully grasp that. There are, however, many other expenses and many other ways of generating revenue to cover those expenses. Without getting into every detail of hosting an event, if done intelligently, and you have a private course worthy of 72 player fields, then hosting C-tiers *can* be a big source of revenue.
courses in maine do. but they don't average 50 players a week. they average at least 100 a day in the summer. pleasant hill probably over 300 a day in the summer and they they close up shop in the winter.
but there aren't free courses in the area, which is very necessary for it to work
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Do they cover the costs of purchasing the land? I haven't played those courses, and have no idea what land costs there are like. But I am aware that they are successful, on some level, for the very reason you cite.
After I posted about it being impossible, I started thinking about Blue Ribbon Pines. I've heard that it's doing very well but, again, I'm not sure if that means well enough to cover the land costs. It might.
As both a private course owner where we run C-tiers, I'll certainly agree that running tournaments is a way to add some income. Unless an awful lot of stars align, I won't go as far as a big source of revenue.
Though I wonder if, say, the original Brackett's Bluff might have had those stars aligned---a great course near the disc golf hotbed of Charlotte.
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How much do the Maine courses charge to play? Is it per round or per day?
Depends entirely on the course. Single round rates tend to range from $4-7. All day rates range from $6-10. Some places they offer both, some do just the flat day rate. Something else to keep in mind is some places have just one 18-hole course, some have two. One has 2.5 (2 18s and a 9-holer). One has three full 18-hole courses. The ones with multiple courses tend to be the ones with the higher rates. My course charges $6 flat rate for the day with just one 18-hole course.
Most courses around here were built on land that the owners already had, whether it is the land their own home is on or old family land (more than one old family farm is now a disc golf course) or simply another business that they added to or replaced with disc golf.
Some examples...one course (Pleasant Hill mentioned up thread) used to be a 9-hole ball golf course that the family converted. Another course was built on land already operating a ball golf driving range, batting cages and mini golf. There's another at a working farm/orchard...their pro shop is in the same building as their bakery and gift shop. There's another on the grounds of a dance/concert hall. There are a couple courses built on campgrounds, including the first basketed course in New England and one of the first ten in the world at Beaver Brook Campground.
So for some, there wasn't necessarily a land purchase expense, at least not directly related to the course itself. The land was already there and paid for (or the mortgage was getting paid already), and for various reasons they added disc golf to the property. I don't think anyone is getting rich running a disc golf course as a business, but most places seem to at least be making enough to keep the lights on. Of course, what it takes to do that varies greatly from course to course.
If you want to look at a case of P2P co-existing with perfectly good free courses nearby, a great example is central MA where you have Maple Hill and Pyramids (Marshall Street) thriving in the middle of a bunch of really good free public options. Pretty sure Maple Hill charges $10 for the day and every time I've ever been there outside of a tournament situation, the course is busy. Not straight out three group back up on every tee kind of busy, but on any random afternoon/evening, you're not going to have the place to yourself by any means.
P2P disc golf, like any business, can thrive anywhere if it's done right.
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filobedo
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These discussion always make me wonder if many disc golfers are actually sovereign citizens or just the tightest people on earth. $10 is nothing to play a well groomed course but many gripe if everything in dg is not free due to the precedent set early on. If you have equity in the property when you purchase it, talk to your accountant or FA about a HELOC and tax benefits for improvements.
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Did you need to get a liquor license? Or is that a non-issue where you are located?
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And these kinds of comments make me wonder about people's reading comprehension. The question isn't whether $10 is affordable, the question is whether $10 is in the ball park of what it takes to for a course to make financial sense.
Whether it's affordable isn't an issue, but how many people are willing to pay it is an issue. Affordability isn't as crucial as what seems reasonable to the consumer. In other words, you don't want to price yourself out of the market.
As price goes up, the number of people willing to pay that price goes down. Somewhere there's a sweet spot where you maximize revenue (which is price times the number of people that pay that price). Figuring out how much revenue to expect is definitely something to consider if you want to know if a course makes financial sense.
By the way, another idea to increase revenue would be to run a PDGA sanctioned league. The sanctioning fees are less than you pay for tournaments, but you still draw a larger crowd because people like to play rated rounds. You also create a more consistent revenue stream by having a recurring weekly event, rather than one big tournament. Heck, you might even get more players on non-league days because the league will encourage them to practice on the course.
From the O.P.'s perspective, the question is, what level of fee and participation would be required to get the hoped-for return.
The next question after that, is whether disc golfers would pay it.
The next question after that, is whether disc golfers would pay it.
Leagues and tournaments, at least for a course that intends to generate enough revenue to stay in operation, are very small potatoes. If we're shutting down the course to give exclusive use to a tournament, we're effectively capping our greens fees (say at 72 players), when on a nice weekend day in the summer, we typically will see more than 72 paying customers (not to mention we discount greens fees that are included in a tourney entry fee). So right away we're sacrificing some of our potential revenue for the day.
Basically, tournaments are loss-leaders. We run them knowing we're losing out on some revenue for the day but view it as advertising for the course. Players that don't frequent the course tend to visit more often in the days/weeks leading up to a tournament to prepare/practice. Players that have never been to the course play the tournament, enjoy the course, and are more likely to come back in the future (and bring friends).
Basically, tournaments are loss-leaders. We run them knowing we're losing out on some revenue for the day but view it as advertising for the course. Players that don't frequent the course tend to visit more often in the days/weeks leading up to a tournament to prepare/practice. Players that have never been to the course play the tournament, enjoy the course, and are more likely to come back in the future (and bring friends).
teemkey
* Ace Member *
One of the most successful p2p disc golf enterprises in Oregon is Horning's Hideout. There are three courses, but disc golf is not the big income generator at Hornings. They also have fishing and camping on their grounds. However, they make the bulk of their money on weddings, concerts, and the warrior dash.
It's really more about the traffic and resulting word of mouth advertising for the other functions at Horning's.
Disc golf courses in this area often are placed on land that's not usable for other purposes, some of that due to the decline of logging in the northwest. As other posters have said, it's hard to make a profit with disc golf; but something is better than nothing for the owners willing to put up the installation & maintenance costs/effort, and, of course, with the dg players.
It's really more about the traffic and resulting word of mouth advertising for the other functions at Horning's.
Disc golf courses in this area often are placed on land that's not usable for other purposes, some of that due to the decline of logging in the northwest. As other posters have said, it's hard to make a profit with disc golf; but something is better than nothing for the owners willing to put up the installation & maintenance costs/effort, and, of course, with the dg players.
That's an interesting point JC, I hadn't thought of it that way. Maybe you could schedule leagues for a non-peak time (perhaps a weekday evening?) so you don't interfere as much with normal business.
Non-peak times tend to be weekdays during the day when most folks are working. Weekday evenings can get as busy as a weekend day when the weather is ideal. But even still, most courses in the area do run weekday evening leagues. I just don't think they necessarily add anything revenue-wise. I know we usually do about the same and sometimes better business on non-league nights than we do on league night.
By far, the majority of our players are non-competitive. League nights can almost be more of a turn-off than a turn-on for them.
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