Fee threshold for success of private courses.

[wellsbranch250]

as noted by Chuck, its been a labor of love to me. i currently don't charge any money. we probably have close to a 1000 man hours of work put into it, and i self funded the purchase of 20 baskets. I did hit the ace pot last year though, and I put the money right back into the course.

 

[Mando]

. In today's DG landscape, how likely is it that a truly great course could break even, or be profitable, from entry fees alone?The property is within an hour of a major city that has a well-established disc golf scene.

Zero chance. An hour is actually two hours, round trip. That's a deal breaker.

 

[ray1970]

An hour is actually two hours, round trip. That's a deal breaker.

Slacker. All of the best courses are an hour from my house. Fortunately for me my truck gets nearly 14 mpg so the cost to make a 160 mile round trip is minimal with gas prices what they are right now.

 

[jupiterboy]

Museums do really well with a "pay what you want" model. It's kinda amazing that some will just throw a $20 bill in the box and avoid the hassle with change given the option, even if admission would have been $11 otherwise.

 

[rhatton1]

Interesting to read the situation in the US.

We have a few profitable and successful standalone courses now over here - a notable one is Quarry Park https://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=2398 which has members of staff plus the owner on full time. There is a disc shop but no food/retail or other draws.

Gilly's is a new one that opened last year - https://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=12379 and looks like it will have no issues sustaining a full time living as well as growing as a business based on just the footfall plus small disc shop. One of Gilly's best demographic has been grandparents bringing grandchilden that they are babysitting for. Look for the demographics that have time, money and an urge to get people outside away from screens and you should do well!

Both of these are close to urban areas and near large conurbations but set in rural settings. The bread and butter money is not from attracting disc golfers but aimed at people looking for a casual activity. Disc Golfers complain (but then still pay it) at £8 - 12 a round. Families looking for something to do think a family ticket for £20 is great value. If you make your core market disc golfers you may struggle, if you can make your core market casual players with extra income from Disc Golfers you have much more of a chance of doing well.

 

[BillFleming]

Museums do really well with a "pay what you want" model. It's kinda amazing that some will just throw a $20 bill in the box and avoid the hassle with change given the option, even if admission would have been $11 otherwise.

I think that wouldn't work for disc golf. Museum goers and disc golfers are different groups of folks (although there are some that fit both groups). Most disc golfers I know are of the "disc golf should be free" state of mind. Or at least they want it to be as inexpensive as possible. One park with a course charges less than $5 admission/parking except on one day of the week when it's free....guess when the league has it's rounds. It's not because the club leaders want it that day...it's because they know that is when the majority of players will show up.

 

[elmexdela]

Museums do really well with a "pay what you want" model. It's kinda amazing that some will just throw a $20 bill in the box and avoid the hassle with change given the option, even if admission would have been $11 otherwise.

works for them then should work for us

 

[jupiterboy]

I think that wouldn't work for disc golf. Museum goers and disc golfers are different groups of folks (although there are some that fit both groups). Most disc golfers I know are of the "disc golf should be free" state of mind. Or at least they want it to be as inexpensive as possible. One park with a course charges less than $5 admission/parking except on one day of the week when it's free....guess when the league has it's rounds. It's not because the club leaders want it that day...it's because they know that is when the majority of players will show up.

No doubt, yet I note some states have more pay-to-play courses, so it's hard to know how it all plays out.

Free days really draw crowds at museums, too.

The reason I posted is because it is pretty easy to test. If I had a course on private land, I could put up a sign and a donation box at the first tee for very little expense. I strongly suspect that you would get enough money to at least cover the cost of the sign and box.

Museum will often take in more from an exhibition allowing people to give what they want than charging for tickets. It also seems to boost sales of merch and publications. There might be some overlap psychology. It is counter-intuitive in a way.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

works for them then should work for us

Ha maybe.. We are a notoriously cheap crowd traditionally.

Museum cultural kinda folks seem like a more affluent crowd for say 50 percent plus of attendees, Discgolfers are broke as a joke for 50 percent plus with maybe a 20 percent or less of affluent DG'rs. Look at who puts up money and discs when there's a fundraiser, I think there's 2500+ in the FB group up here and any time there's a fundraiser it's often the same 50/75 people pitching in.

Case in point.. I run a casual doubles tourney, started out with some buddy's looking for somewhere to hide on last day of tourney while the main course was in use. If you played Fri/sat instead of sat/sun dubs at my place for $5. Since it started with 35ish friends I made margaritas, it became tradition for 10yrs, grew to over 115 people, I had to up the entry to $10 to cover the $500 bar tab, a few people bitched about the low payout... Cops were "looking" for the margaritaville open.. Stopped serving "free" margs and attendance dropped 40 people instantly.

I love discers, I love the culture but let's be honest, we're kinda into camping and sleeping in vans and doing it on the cheap. People will pay to bag a course or maybe once or twice a month but a free course will always be crowded.

 

[edmunder]

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=468

Flip city is near me in West Michigan. Its $5 to play and I have been there at all different times and days - usually there are other people playing.

I have a friend who goes there for leagues and which I think is Wednesday night during the summer and its packed.

This course is pretty good and I get the 5 star rating from most people, but its more like the course doesnt have anything wrong with it, not that it is a spectacular course. It does have a few memorable holes but nothing that would make me think this is one of the top 10 courses in the world.

Anyways - its $5 to play and it looks like tens of thousands of dollars flow into Flip City from April to October.

 

[BillFleming]

No doubt, yet I note some states have more pay-to-play courses, so it's hard to know how it all plays out.

Free days really draw crowds at museums, too.

The reason I posted is because it is pretty easy to test. If I had a course on private land, I could put up a sign and a donation box at the first tee for very little expense. I strongly suspect that you would get enough money to at least cover the cost of the sign and box.

Museum will often take in more from an exhibition allowing people to give what they want than charging for tickets. It also seems to boost sales of merch and publications. There might be some overlap psychology. It is counter-intuitive in a way.

In my previous post, I should have added.....

There's another course on private property. It is available to play...there's a gate on the road, you just have to stop in the office, pay $3 and they let you enter to play. Guess what happens....yep, players park on the road and jump the fence. We almost lost access to the course because of that. One group was even a league. It took a while, but it finally got stopped for the most part. I understand there are still a few fence jumpers, but it is rarer.

 

[hanger129]

By "profitable", do we mean covering expenses, or generating enough income to live on?

If the land is already owned, and the owner (or someone) doing the maintenance work, the right course could make a profit. That is, cover expenses and put a little cash in his pocket.

The covid boom helps, but all of the other hurdles mentioned 5 years ago, still apply.

The expectation isn't to make enough money to live on, but how realistic is it to think a course could generate $20k in a year? I've reached out to UDisc to gather stats from a nearby course (the only course he'd be competing with in the area), and the numbers suggest it's possible but only assuming players are willing to pay $5 for all-day play.

 

[biscoe]

The expectation isn't to make enough money to live on, but how realistic is it to think a course could generate $20k in a year? I've reached out to UDisc to gather stats from a nearby course (the only course he'd be competing with in the area), and the numbers suggest it's possible but only assuming players are willing to pay $5 for all-day play.

I don't think anyone in this area is charging as little as $5/day anymore. $10 has pretty much become the going rate. In general I don't feel like $10 scares anyone off- if they have to travel so much as a little bit to get there then the actual fee is less of an issue than the time they need to commit to do it.

Everywhere is different though- I am pretty sure that a top notch course in Northern Virginia could charge $15-$20 whereas 2 hours south in Richmond that would never fly. The number and quality of free courses close by will have a huge effect as well.

 

[Dcinmd]

The expectation isn't to make enough money to live on, but how realistic is it to think a course could generate $20k in a year? I've reached out to UDisc to gather stats from a nearby course (the only course he'd be competing with in the area), and the numbers suggest it's possible but only assuming players are willing to pay $5 for all-day play.

At $5 a pop that 4,000 visit in a year. Or 77 visits per week.

 

[The Shide]

Having more "disposable income" than the average disc golfer, I gladly will pay to play a round of golf.

A reasonable cost, in my estimation, is $5 to $10 per round/day. If a course has more "character", I would be willing to pay more.

 

[DavidSauls]

I don't think anyone in this area is charging as little as $5/day anymore. $10 has pretty much become the going rate. In general I don't feel like $10 scares anyone off- if they have to travel so much as a little bit to get there then the actual fee is less of an issue than the time they need to commit to do it.

Everywhere is different though- I am pretty sure that a top notch course in Northern Virginia could charge $15-$20 whereas 2 hours south in Richmond that would never fly. The number and quality of free courses close by will have a huge effect as well.

Yes, as in real estate, "location" being a major factor.

Location as it relates to number of disc golfers, regional acceptance of pay-to-play, and quality of free courses nearby.

(For example, I understand that in Maine, the majority of courses are P2P. I'd think a place like that would have a better chance than many others).

 

[InnocentCrook]

The problem you'll have is that there's almost always nearby options for disc golf that are free. The private/for profit course better be the bees knees and very well maintained if you hope to draw well enough.

My course is lucky to be situated pretty equidistant from Cincinnati, Louisville, and Lexington. I'm about an hour-ish from each metro area and frequently draw from all three on any given open day. Word is starting to spread, but the course is still pretty young (4 years) and quite rustic/raw.

I do not charge, but do have a donation box as well as accept Paypal/Venmo donations. I won't ever charge unless I feel I'm able to make the course along with other aspects of my property my sole income (hopefully add some short term rental units like Browns & Bows in Northern California). Until then, I don't feel like I'd ever be able to keep the course in good enough shape to require payment to play. Even then, I'd prefer to keep the course free and focus on the rentals and a proshop to turn the profit.

Donations, can be extremely hit or miss. I had a run of 2 or 3 open days last year where maybe a total of a dozen folks showed up across the 3 days. Total donations for those days was about $6 (not a typo, $6 total). Earlier this year I've had a similar run or 2 or 3 open days where the total amount of donations and a handful of disc sales (I sell some "Hidden Ridge" stamped Trilogy/Gateway/Innova discs. Inventory of <100 discs.) was easily a few hundred bucks. I use that money to keep upgrading the course as well as invest in more "proshop" inventory to sell.

Based on what I've seen in my area, a private course needs to have additional avenues of income to be profitable. Rentals, food/beer, proshop, etc. I would leave my career in a heartbeat and focus 100% on my land/course if I ever felt like I could clear $2-3k a month in profits.

 

[DavidSauls]

At $5 a pop that 4,000 visit in a year. Or 77 visits per week.

Or 11 visits per day. Which doesn't sound like much, though you've got to figure there will be days with bad weather when nobody shows up, so you'd need higher attendance on other days.

I'd think that in the right place, with the right course, it's quite possible to generate that much revenue. Some of which will go to expenses, even if the labor and land are free.

 

[DavidSauls]

Museums do really well with a "pay what you want" model. It's kinda amazing that some will just throw a $20 bill in the box and avoid the hassle with change given the option, even if admission would have been $11 otherwise.

We have a private course with light play, and accept donations instead of a fee. I'd guess that our donations average over $5 per person -- many won't pay anything, especially locals, but some people will drop $20 in, which makes up for it. We also created a "support" club for extra donations, with a few perks, and people were generous with that.

It doesn't add up to income, because it's still light play, but it covers a lot of expenses and improvements.

 

[dmoore1998]

Digging this thread back up. I'm curious to know people's opinions on this topic now that disc golf has seen a large boom during the pandemic. In today's DG landscape, how likely is it that a truly great course could break even, or be profitable, from entry fees alone?

A friend has the opportunity to build a disc golf course on private land that is owned by an interested party, so land cost is not an issue. He hopes to work with an experienced course designer in the hopes of having a truly great course right from the get-go. The property is within an hour of a major city that has a well-established disc golf scene.

It depends entirely how you label "profitable". If profit means to exceed expenses...it shouldn't be hard at all if you can keep expenses down. The part that makes profitability difficult is land cost. Land cost should be factored into costs...but not everyone will because they either already own the land or are ignoring opportunity costs. From there, it just depends what expenses are included as "costs of the course". If land costs are sunk, and maintenance costs are already happening because the land is being maintained...then you're really only talking about an ability to make more money over the life of the course than what the course cost to install.

Example: I have a "private course"...it's nothing much, it's just something new to play. I could spend $20,000 on baskets and teepads (I didn't because I haven't wanted that many holes or concrete teepads yet). I already own the land, I already provide maintenance. Assuming the baskets last only 10 years, I only need to make more than $2,000/year to be "profitable". As it stands, i actually paid about $5,000 for the entire course...which makes profitability even easier.

That's all a FAR cry from purchasing land to build a course though (and then doing the necessary modifications to make the land usable for disc golf).