Pivoting on heel issues

[mcrow24]

This is a video I found very helpful. At the 4 minute mark you can see how he plants an rotates on his heel, this is what I'm talking about. The way I see it in the video it looks almost like your arm should be almost in front of your plant foot before you start rotating.

 

[TrentO]

It's funny that I've watched all these videos repeatedly which I'm not ashamed to admit and each time I think I pick up something different every time. First time it might be footwork and nothing else, then the second time it'll be follow through, then the 35th time it'll be release angle and so on but I never noticed that they are releasing the disc right before the pivot. I've been trying to do it as I'm about to release which is just opening my hips up early and I sky it or yank it right. It's so crazy that one person can tell you something at one point and it doesn't make sense or sink in then all of a sudden when someone else repeats it and it clicks. Thanks again everyone!

 

[DiscJunkie]

I'm no expert, but one of the keys to creating more power and fluidity in my throw was to remember not to pull the disc forward until your front/plant foot touches the ground.
If you pull too early, you will do more spinning than pivot.
If you wait on the pull (that is, only pull (after) your front foot is grounded), you will feel the brace and the bracing pivot will dissipate/absorb/dampen the energy that you put into the throw.
Does that make sense?

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I'm no expert, but one of the keys to creating more power and fluidity in my throw was to remember not to pull the disc forward until your front/plant foot touches the ground.
If you pull too early, you will do more spinning than pivot.
If you wait on the pull (that is, only pull (after) your front foot is grounded), you will feel the brace and the bracing pivot will dissipate/absorb/dampen the energy that you put into the throw.
Does that make sense?

This is a little bit semantics and a little bit really important. When SW talks about "crushing the can" - or I've talked about going toe down - heal down, it's the heal down part that is really the trigger (specifically the heal weighting) for bringing the disc forward not starting the pull.

Semantics can be important. Don't start the pull / aka the acceleration from the back of the backswing.

There's two very different ways that things can happen. You can start pulling at the depth's of your backswing, which I would argue is a very bad idea when you're working this stuff out... or you bring the disc forward / collapse it back to your power pocket.

Things are smooth, loose but still controlled... and the elbow leading with the hand on the outside will create the mechanism to accept your weight shifting into the braced front side.

remember, the acceleration happens in concert with the shoulder opening. Think of it as throwing with your front shoulder, but it has to happen out front.

 

[TrentO]

Lately since I've slowed things down I've gotten much better accuracy and distance which is hard to make sense of in my Neanderthal brain which always tells me to throw as hard as I can from start to finish. My run up is noticeable slower than most others I play with but it has a good tempo through my throw so I keep it the same (not that it's a casual walk but it's definitely not a RUN up), I land with my toes on my plant foot then as soon as my heel touches down my hips start turning which pulls my shoulder/elbow forward to start the throw but I feel more like I'm guiding my disc into my chest then it feels like I'm leading with my elbow then as soon as it feels like I can't get the disc any closer to my body and sometimes hitting my chest on occasion I feel like I'm trying to backhand slap someone, admittedly sometimes with what feels like no power cause I'm afraid of pulling it right but I can still throw almost 400. It's the only way I can actually feel the disc leave my hand instead of actually letting it go. Is that what the throw is supposed to feel like? It feels like the throw has two parts: guiding it into my chest then trying to explode my forearm forward which gives my wrist lag then feeling it whip at the end when the disc leaves/rips out off my index finger?

 

[slowplastic]

Is that what the throw is supposed to feel like? It feels like the throw has two parts: guiding it into my chest then trying to explode my forearm forward which gives my wrist lag then feeling it whip at the end when the disc leaves/rips out off my index finger?

Work on SW22's Door Frame Drill. I used to feel what you feel, like I was using my forearm forwards. But after getting better hips/shoulder separation and weight transfer I feel it more in my shoulder to just whip everything around, and don't really think about the forearm at all. It feels much more powerful and smoother. I still don't have it perfect at all times, but when it is a good day my power is 400-425' with that feeling, compared to 375-400' when I had the forearm throwing forward feeling. I agree with the guiding to the power pocket part though.

 

[TrentO]

So I'm on the right path though? Just need to work on better weight transfer, bracing, and incorporating my shoulder more? Well amougst other things but it'd be a nice feeling to be heading the right way at least haha

 

[zj1002]

As multiple people have said its a natural product of shifting your weight. That can only happen when you do your x-step on your toes, and are not flat footed. This allows a more efficient shift, with less forced effort. When your brace foot plants, it should look a lot like those pictures of Eagle. Also to note, you don't have to be as closed with the foot as Eagle is, some people have more flexibility to pull that off.

In that video that got linked(thats me throwing) and in the pictures of Ealge you will see that we land on the ball/inside of big toe. As your body opens and you shift the weight forward it will naturally push your heel down and help you clear your body forward. You don't have to manually try to move toe-heel-pivot as part of the throw. It just happens, same thing as the arm follow through.

The most important thing to always think about is moving your whole body forward. Adjusting 1 little degree of how you plant your foot might gain you 5ft if you are an EXPERT. The biggest benefit will be making sure you on your toes and shift your weight with the path of the disc. Any other minutia you might see isn't worth focusing on unless you want to throw farther than Lizotte

 

[slowplastic]

So I'm on the right path though? Just need to work on better weight transfer, bracing, and incorporating my shoulder more? Well amougst other things but it'd be a nice feeling to be heading the right way at least haha

Focus on the bracing, it helps the weight shift actually matter. That's what I found. Then because of having a firm brace point you're rotating around a static axis that isn't tipping forward or sloppily drifting, the shoulder thing starts to make more sense. If the axis is constantly drifting then using the shoulder didn't feel as natural for me since its location was constantly changing during the throw.

 

[TrentO]

I can't thank you guys enough. I just got back from a local course I play a lot and shot 2 down which is 3 better than my best. I know I don't have a firm grasp on bracing just yet but it's nice knowing that if I just take it nice and easy that I can throw it straight and where I want the only problem I have now is (I'd imagine I'm getting more spin on he disc with it actually ripping out of my hand) turning discs that were straight flyers for me but I guess that's a good problem to have. Also found myself reaching for a putter a few times off the tee.

 

[DiscJunkie]

I'm no expert, but one of the keys to creating more power and fluidity in my throw was to remember not to pull the disc forward until your front/plant foot touches the ground.
If you pull too early, you will do more spinning than pivot.
If you wait on the pull (that is, only pull (after) your front foot is grounded), you will feel the brace and the bracing pivot will dissipate/absorb/dampen the energy that you put into the throw.
Does that make sense?

This is a little bit semantics and a little bit really important. When SW talks about "crushing the can" - or I've talked about going toe down - heal down, it's the heal down part that is really the trigger (specifically the heal weighting) for bringing the disc forward not starting the pull.

Semantics can be important. Don't start the pull / aka the acceleration from the back of the backswing.

There's two very different ways that things can happen. You can start pulling at the depth's of your backswing, which I would argue is a very bad idea when you're working this stuff out... or you bring the disc forward / collapse it back to your power pocket.

Things are smooth, loose but still controlled... and the elbow leading with the hand on the outside will create the mechanism to accept your weight shifting into the braced front side.

remember, the acceleration happens in concert with the shoulder opening. Think of it as throwing with your front shoulder, but it has to happen out front.

You are correct. The pull really starts in earnest later in the motion. I had never thought of using the term "bringing the disc forward" before starting the pull, but it makes sense.
Thanks for the correction/clarification.

 

[Kodachrome]

If the kid who put his shorts on 10 years ago and grew into them can do it, so can you!


Nah, I'll never get a feel for the plant. Still working on it. You guys give me new ideas sometimes though.

 

[TrentO]

Honestly I thought his shorts were painted on....

 

[Mornius]

Yesterday I focused on transfering my weight and pivoting on my heel during a round and experienced a strange sensation in my knee. Does anyone know what this means and what I possibly did wrong?

 

[ash81]

Man, I logged on here to update my thread about bracing and saw this...it's right on track with some new questions I had. For the guys who have the bracing down, did it feel a little awkward at first with the weight shift? I've really been trying to focus on that moment where the SW22 crush the can vid discusses the feeling of a bit of a "bump" where the weight comes down on the foot. It just feels a little strange like I'm loosing power into the ground, but the results are actually pretty good when it comes together vs when I was lunging through the throw.

Also, I'm thinking we should all just get in an RV, stock it with BBQ and cold frothy nectar qnd then go round up HUB, SW22, a few others, and hold them at beer point for a form clinic.

 

[slowplastic]

@ash81...don't focus on "down" with the heel, focus on having it plant in front of you so that you can push into it. Like an A-frame. Everything should move forward into that foot, that is out in front of you, to lean into. Yes you can crush a can, but it should be a smooth natural glide into this feeling with balance, not a stomp.

Focus on the forward movement and let the plant foot push back against you, not stomping it downwards. Once you know what it feels like it just "works" and there's not really any weird forces/pain/jerkiness, and it makes sense, so if things hurt or feel like you're getting directed off balance then it's not quite right yet.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

One thing that worked for a buddy of mine (who had no prior baseball / hockey experience) was suggesting that he act like he was sliding in socks from one side of slick wood floored hallway to the other side. You push sideways and catch your weight against the other side, so that you don't smash into the wall. SearchingForSilky called this the "speed skater" move.

Knees bend automatically pretty much the right way doing this and while he was hopping back and forth, catching the shift - I handed him a disc and said, "when it feels right, throw it" and he timed it perfect and threw one of the best shots he'd ever thrown to that point.

 

[TrentO]

I know I shouldn't focus on the heel coming down but if my toes touch is the heel coming down what starts my arm coming forward into the power pocket? My experience thus far has been my heel comes down and it feels like that's the weight starting to shift forward? I've read so many articles and watched so much video it's hard to keep things straight.....

 

[slowplastic]

I know I shouldn't focus on the heel coming down but if my toes touch is the heel coming down what starts my arm coming forward into the power pocket? My experience thus far has been my heel comes down and it feels like that's the weight starting to shift forward? I've read so many articles and watched so much video it's hard to keep things straight.....

The heel coming down starts the real weight shift, and gets the hips moving (it's fine to think of planting the heel...just don't stomp it downwards). The arm should still be fully reached back at that instant and you should feel some stretching up your lead side. Then you have no choice but to guide the disc forward to the power pocket, and then unload the shoulder from there. Getting this chain of events makes the throws feel like less arm and less effort.

 

[slowplastic]

One thing that worked for a buddy of mine (who had no prior baseball / hockey experience) was suggesting that he act like he was sliding in socks from one side of slick wood floored hallway to the other side. You push sideways and catch your weight against the other side, so that you don't smash into the wall. SearchingForSilky called this the "speed skater" move.

I really like this, I feel it would click for a lot of people.