This is why I like private courses

[reposado]

a question to those that wouldn't pay that kind of money to play just one course:

what if it were a complex with a minimum of 3 complementary courses (maybe 2 if there are enough different tee options)? would it be worth considering then?

Very unlikely. Playing different courses is one of my favorite things. It would have to be substantially lower than that.

One overlooked feature is that "access" one and staffing - owner being tied to always be there, or paying someone to be there. or trusting an honor box and taking on a risk of bad stuff happening while away.

At the point you're turning a profit, it's a business like any other and you have insurance. As for staffing, I mean you get a high school kid on minimum wage most of the time. The owner spends quite a bit of time there probably but it's liek any other store or business.

 

[reposado]

If the course is good enough (and priced right), there's no such thing as "free to play courses to suck the market dry". Quality will survive no matter the cost.........(snip)


Obviously there are no free courses in Maine (at least none worth mentioning) so it's all theoretical, but I don't think having free courses would change a whole lot here. I mean, if free would win out over pay, then it would stand to reason that cheaper would win out over expensive, right? Yet arguably the busiest course in the state is the one that charges the most to play, and it competes with at least a half a dozen other courses within 15-20 miles that all charge less.

All else equal, quality wins over less quality. All else equal, cheap wins out over expensive. When both factors (and others) are in play.

And everyone values the factors differently. If the choice is $7 to play Sabattus or $5 to play Pleasant Hill, then Sabattus looks like the best option. If a free course the same quality of Pleasant Hill opens up, well then business is going to shift away from Pleasant Hill.

Me in that situation, I would still play Sabattus, but not as much as before. I'd mix in the free course more than I would PH. For person x, maybe he still plays Sabattus all the time. But now let's raise the Sabattus price to $15, now person x is like, I'll play free more often. And me, I'm almost never playing Sabattus.

Bottom line: no, quality will not survive no matter the cost. People will pay more for quality but not infinitely more.

Are there places where there are currently free courses where a PTP course could go in and survive. Yes. But there are some where there is enough saturation from free courses where PTP would not work

 

[brutalbrutus]

?? You wouldn't pay to play nice courses?

I wouldn't pay a large yearly fee for a single course, unless I moved to a different area. It would be kind of hard to justify it considering Mt Airy, Lincoln Ridge and Idlewild are all less than an hour drive. Twice a year I go to Cabin Creek for unsanctioned course FR events. But its only $5 to play...

 

[reposado]

So, why don't they have gobs of free courses? (How many courses are in a gob?)

Is it state government spending policies?

Local government?

Moose?

for one, there aren't large city or country parks already in existence. for many towns, a tract of land would have to be purchased by the town or county in order to put a park in. that is a much harder sell then asking the town to transform a piece of land it already owns.

i'm not sure how true that is of everywhere but from north carolina to florida, a lot of towns have decent sized public parks with lots of activities and cities have megaparks. in maine, those don't exist.

a few courses i know have gone in at city parks in maine in the last few years but they tend to be small niners. all there is room for.

state parks have a lot more space but in maine they tend to be far from the population base.

this is largely true of massachusetts as well.

 

[NOStheBOSS]

I'd say $100/yr membership would not be so far fetched. But it would have to be a high level course like IDGC, Maple Hill, etc. and be available 24/7 and excellently maintained. If you had 200-300 members, thats $20,000-30,000/yr in revenue, which I assume is enough for the owner to maintain the property and maybe make a little on. It wouldn't be a gold mine for sure, but a cool lifestyle for the right person.

 

[WhiteyBear]

I'd say $100/yr membership would not be so far fetched. But it would have to be a high level course like IDGC, Maple Hill, etc. and be available 24/7 and excellently maintained. If you had 200-300 members, thats $20,000-30,000/yr in revenue, which I assume is enough for the owner to maintain the property and maybe make a little on. It wouldn't be a gold mine for sure, but a cool lifestyle for the right person.

And basic math days that this financial plan is terrible.

24/7
Excellently maintained
30k gross revenue

You might as well hand the guy food stamps to help out the cause.

 

[NOStheBOSS]

And basic math days that this financial plan is terrible.

24/7
Excellently maintained
30k gross revenue

You might as well hand the guy food stamps to help out the cause.

yeah here I forgot about basic math. If the owner spent all of his time and energy in the course and earned $30k then yeah that's not a lot of money at all. Seems like he could do some sort of work from home gig or have another side business in the mean time.

 

[Jashwa]

We as a sport need to suck it up and say "I'm willing to pay $500-$700/year to play on high quality facilities that are specifically dedicated to disc golf.

Curious as to where you got the $500-$700 range from...

 

[JC17393]

Curious as to where you got the $500-$700 range from...

Just a guess...2 rounds/days a week, 50 weeks a year, at $5 each time = $500...or 2 rounds/days a week, 25 weeks a year, at $10 each time. Tack on a few extra trips as a buffer or assume different places have different rates, and $500-700 seems like a reasonable range for an estimate.

 

[Peterb]

From our experience here in the bay area:
- Golden Gate Park is so overcrowded (great course, just crazy crowds) that many don't want to take 3 hours + to play a single round.
- San Jose Courses are good, just kind of on forgotten landscapes that don't really make me want to say, hey, yeah, let's go play at that course (especially in the summer when it's too hot and everything is brown and dusty). Plus you need to to pay $6 to park at Kelley, the only 18 holer in the valley.
- Dela is over an hour for me to get to. While it's epic, it still is overcrowded most days and yes, you do need to pay to park (though only $2)

So we're trying Emerald Hills: on a green golf course with water hazards, carts, and the like. They're still over priced, but that is going to change soon (likely to $8 per round, with $5 replays). Beer and snacks are available, and we'd like to get a huge disc store going there. It's never too crowded or popular, because the fees scare people away. For me that's a plus. I like to enjoy my scenic round without the rif raff (please don't judge me).

So far it's going quite well as we've achieved ROI. We need to do some more things to make it better but now that it's profitable it shouldn't be difficult to get budget.

One other thing. I really enjoy the model where someone else maintains the course and gets paid to do so. The volunteer/work party thing eventually breaks down as people won't volunteer for years on end. Someone needs to get paid to do the work of maintenance. And its awfully nice to have cut grass and maintained trails just for the price of a greens fee.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Just a guess...2 rounds/days a week, 50 weeks a year, at $5 each time = $500...or 2 rounds/days a week, 25 weeks a year, at $10 each time. Tack on a few extra trips as a buffer or assume different places have different rates, and $500-700 seems like a reasonable range for an estimate.

Problem is most people who play p2p courses that often just buy a season pass.

Three rivers park district for example runs 3 different courses here: Hyland Bryant and Elm. All are $6.50 a round [up from $3 and $5 dollars previous seasons] but offer a pass for $45 for all 3 courses. [previously only $35]

Blue ribbon had/has one too but i dont play there 30+ times if i remeber right to make pass worth it. If i lived right up there it would be a no brainer.

Curious to hear what other season passes cpst around the country. One of the most expensive courses here is vision quest and not sure how people think its worth $10/day given other courses in the area.

Pricing is weird for DG. If i had a private course it would be a hard thing to really fit in it seems as volume is the biggest factor along with location. VQ charges 2x as much for half the course of blue ribbon down the road ... both are pretty much in sticks of the north metro.

Nice ball golf courses which are p2p here only charge $5 +tax. Carts are twice the price of a round lol.

Ill keep paying to play. Public or private shooo dont matta. I like disc golf.

 

[JC17393]

Problem is most people who play p2p courses that often just buy a season pass.

You're right, they might. But it does depend on the cost of the season pass...and how many courses it covers.

Three rivers park district for example runs 3 different courses here: Hyland Bryant and Elm. All are $6.50 a round [up from $3 and $5 dollars previous seasons] but offer a pass for $45 for all 3 courses. [previously only $35]

At that price, a season pass is an absolute no brainer. That price is also a total non-starter for privately owned P2Ps from which disc golf is the primary revenue stream. The parks have the luxury of having other revenue (specifically taxpayer funds) to support the facilities. In other words, the park can still operate if the course and its revenue disappears. Not so much for a private course.

Season passes at P2P around here range from $100-250 a year and each pass covers just one place. If you're only playing one or two places over the course of a year, then you can easily keep the budget under $500 with a couple season passes. But if you don't want to limit yourself so much, either your pass budget goes up significantly or you are forced to pay as you go and skip getting passes at all. And that doesn't even get into the fact that not every course has a season pass option in the first place.

 

[DavidSauls]

There are all sorts of private and/or pay-to-pay courses, and they tend to get indiscriminately mixed together in threads like this.

There's a big difference in finances between a property with an existing business, and a disc-golf-only country club. If there's a golf course or other business on the same property, then that business is paying for the land costs, staffing, maintenance (at least in part), etc. Even if the course is separate from the other activities, it may not be too hard to get a return on investment.

It's a long way from that to buying some land, building a course, charging for memberships, and generating enough revenue to pay for the property, staffing, and maintenance.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

I wonder if steve west can chime in re:
http://www.udgsp.com/index.html

I really like the idea of this and even what i think has been done in a county of eastern WI?

I agree most other "parks" have other revenue streams but so should any p2p private course.

Discs. Food. Entertainment.

Landscaping services given tools needed to maintain a course. Farming on site. Outdoor recreational activities/camping/fishing etc.

 

[reposado]

Curious to hear what other season passes cpst around the country. .

$50

In Orlando we have a large park that also has other activities. It is $2 to enter regardless of what you are doing. The annual pass is $30.

I've been to some other mega parks in South Florida and I believe I payed 5$ for most of those. Some had absurd amounts of activities. (shooting ranges, atv trails, etc) I don't know what the annual pass is but I'd wager %50ish.

I agree most other "parks" have other revenue streams but so should any p2p private course.

Discs. Food. Entertainment.

Landscaping services given tools needed to maintain a course. Farming on site. Outdoor recreational activities/camping/fishing etc.

The more successful Maine courses(or better maintained and popular anyways, I'm not privy to their finances) gave the former but not the latter. If I were to make a prediction, they break even on green fees and their profit comes from disc sales and snacks/beverages.

I've also seen a few that also had paintball or something like that.


When you get into a course having farming, I think we are now talking about a agricultural land that has disc golf on the side rather than vice versa.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Yeah the farming would be small scale. Potential to make a product to be sold or wholesaled to local outlets.

Ive played a private course with a few tilled up fields that play as "ob" none of which being any massive size at all just great use of the land available.

Is maple hill a tree farm of some sorts?

 

[brutalbrutus]

After watching last nights episode of American Top Gear, I think this would be a lot more fun way to spend $500...

http://www.24hoursoflemons.com/

 

[Dr.Smooth]

As the sport has grown, i've seen more and more professionals adopt the game.

Because of that I think their is a need for more pay to play. It used to be the game really catered to those of were who broke and couldn't afford expensive recreation.

More often than not I seem to run into folks who have good jobs and disc golf as a passion. They can easily afford a 500 dollar plus membership.

The real question is are their enough of these people to justify the existence of pay to play.

 

[reposado]

As the sport has grown, i've seen more and more professionals adopt the game.

Because of that I think their is a need for more pay to play. It used to be the game really catered to those of were who broke and couldn't afford expensive recreation.

More often than not I seem to run into folks who have good jobs and disc golf as a passion. They can easily afford a 500 dollar plus membership.

The real question is are their enough of these people to justify the existence of pay to play.

but just because you can afford it, doesn't mean you will pay it when a cheaper or free alternative is available

 

[Cgkdisc]

I think what we might see looking back say 15 years from now is many of the new players coming into the sport care a bit less about "free" versus a good experience, i.e., less crowded, better maintained courses. (We already see the newer crowd spending more on discs, bags, clothing and carts than many veteran players.) And, we'll also be picking up many players who have either transitioned from ball golf or would have been and could have afforded becoming ball golfers. But disc golf is more appealing (faster play, time continues to increase in importance) and somewhat less expensive (than what ball golf courses remain) paying what I believe will be closer $15-$20 per round on our better private AND public DG courses by then.

The "free only" biased crowd will have gradually diminished as a percentage of players. Public courses in larger market areas might have diverged into two camps with the free ones either getting beat up from use and falling into disrepair unless volunteers maintain them OR they will have some sort of fee/revenue stream for actual play, parking or entering the facility simply due to reduced, stretched or lack of public funding (and also because many of their park counterparts have been charging.)