Sudden Death Options

[Cgkdisc]

Sudden death where one can win after one hole is common, but is it the best, fairest and way to break ties? Should they even be broken for first place in lower tier events? When a course is designed, the first hole isn't always balanced which likely favors a specific skill. A great example was the Am Nats this past weekend. Anyone who's played hole 1 at Toboggan would recognize its bias toward lefties and righty forehands which in fact the sudden death winner possessed.

If the first hole is not balanced, I would submit that simply giving tied players 2 throws on an open basket for CTP would be more fair and actually faster than sudden death. Another possibility to defend unbalanced first holes might be requiring at least two holes to be played. If either player is ahead by 1 throw after two holes, they win. If tied at that point, they continue like current sudden death.

Some ball golf events require a 3 hole minimum or at one time an 18 hole playoff. That's probably extreme for disc golf below major level. But a 3-hole minimum might be preferable to reduce fluke results like cut-thrus and minimize hole design imbalance.

 

[coupe]

Sudden death where one can win after one hole is common, but is it the best, fairest and way to break ties? Should they even be broken for first place in lower tier events? When a course is designed, the first hole isn't always balanced which likely favors a specific skill. A great example was the Am Nats this past weekend. Anyone who's played hole 1 at Toboggan would recognize its bias toward lefties and righty forehands which in fact the sudden death winner possessed.

If the first hole is not balanced, I would submit that simply giving tied players 2 throws on an open basket for CTP would be more fair and actually faster than sudden death. Another possibility to defend unbalanced first holes might be requiring at least two holes to be played. If either player is ahead by 1 throw after two holes, they win. If tied at that point, they continue like current sudden death.

Some ball golf events require a 3 hole minimum or at one time an 18 hole playoff. That's probably extreme for disc golf below major level. But a 3-hole minimum might be preferable to reduce fluke results like cut-thrus and minimize hole design imbalance.

There are many good arguments for changing the playoff format away from sudden death.

A poor choice of starting hole by the TD is not one of them.

 

[Cgkdisc]

There are many good arguments for changing the playoff format away from sudden death. A poor choice of starting hole by the TD is not one of them.

If hole 1 is a good choice to determine a winner, then it implies playing it 18 times is a good way to fairly test the players. But the game in theory is a complete set of holes testing a variety of skills in the same way a game or set in tennis is consider a group of point challenges. Tennis has a history that requires winning by two in a game or tiebreak which reduces the chance flukes/luck determine the winner. One serve on the forehand side and one on the backhand side.

 

[coupe]

If hole 1 is a good choice to determine a winner, then it implies playing it 18 times is a good way to fairly test the players. But the game in theory is a complete set of holes testing a variety of skills in the same way a game or set in tennis is consider a group of point challenges. Tennis has a history that requires winning by two in a game or tiebreak which reduces the chance flukes/luck determine the winner. One serve on the forehand side and one on the backhand side.

You're not paying attention.

There are many good arguments for changing the playoff format away from sudden death.

A poor choice of starting hole by the TD is not one of them.

 

[JRW III]

Good question. Tough balance between fairness and available time. On many one day events, there is not enough daylight to expand the playoffs much.

My opinion:

A-Tier+ 3 hole minimum
B-Tier 1 hole minimum
C-Tier TD discretion on tie breakers.

 

[dashiellx]

I like the idea of a 3 basket minimum for playoffs, but as JRW III says, daylight might be an issue.

 

[Atvizory2000]

I think it should still be played as sudden death, but allow the participants to agree on a hole. If no hole is agreed upon, the TD will make the choice.

 

[cheese dog]

the playoff hole must be announced prior to the tourney starting.

 

[DavidSauls]

We designate a different, fairer hole to start sudden death, and a sequence of holes that keep play close to HQ, and leave it at that. A compromise between purity and practicality.

It's not just righty/lefty to consider, since an increasing number of players, particularly in the higher divisions, throw both forehand and backhand. We try to be careful with distance, not to choose a hole that favors a big arm too much.

 

[bradharris]

MPO - Match play win by 2

All other divisions - Sudden death as is.

 

[kenjiac]

the playoff hole must be announced prior to the tourney starting.

This is what you want to put out there that the playoff starting hole must be announced prior to the tournament at the players meeting. If it's not addressed it defaults to hole 1 of the course. Maybe we need to have the the TD's more aware that this is something they need to think about if hole 1 favors a certain shot too much or if tourney central is not near hole 1. We have one of our local tournaments that uses a large pavilion at the park that is by hole 9. I make sure that it's announced that playoff start on hole 9.

 

[JC17393]

There are many good arguments for changing the playoff format away from sudden death.

A poor choice of starting hole by the TD is not one of them.

Agreed...to a degree. In my experience, TDs tend to go with sudden death starting on hole 1 simply because that's what is in the rule book and they can't be bothered to do anything different. It's a choice in the strictest sense, but not necessarily a conscious one backed by any forethought. I know I've been to more than one tourney in which tournament central was closer to the middle of the course than it was to tee one and the TD made players walk across the course to start on hole 1 even though hole 8 or 12 or something else would have been much closer, easier and faster, setting aside consideration of any fairness factors in terms of hole design/challenge.

So if we're changing anything about the rules regarding tiebreaking, I'd start with removing the "playoffs start on hole 1" default option. Put the onus 100% on the TD to select the hole(s) on which the playoff will take place. If TDs were forced to justify their choice beyond "that's what the rule book says to do", they might put more thought into what they're doing and the result might be a more "fair" playoff, be it sudden death or some sort of aggregate set of holes.

 

[DanJon]

At our local private course, we have three holes closest to HQ that we use for playoffs.

They don't particularly favor one type of shot so it usually works out well.

And everyone is aware before rounds start.

 

[biscoe]

Every hole on the face of the earth is biased in some fashion or another- some are just more biased than others. I have not seen the video but from Chuck's post it sounds like a right handed player won it throwing a forehand- throwing forehand is a legitimate disc golf skill which it sounds like the other player did not possess. I doubt the runner up was ever mandated to not throw any forehands in his practice sessions. If a hole is good enough to be on the course for the competition to begin with then it is good enough to settle a playoff.

Sudden death playoffs are the ultimate drama. Any gain in "fairness" made by neutering them in some way is more than made up for in loss of entertainment value/drama.

 

[JC17393]

I think selection of playoff hole(s) should be done on the merits of how quickly they can determine a winner (assuming sudden death). Forget thought of favoring one throwing style/approach over another since you never know who the playoff participants will be, but does the hole have reasonable scoring spread in general? If it does, then who cares if it favors a lefty vs a righty or a forehand vs a backhand or even favors big distance or precision accuracy.

IMO, decisiveness and efficiency should be the driving forces, not making sure everything is fair and balanced. That's what the rest of the tournament was for.

 

[Steve West]

If there were any sort of imbalance on any holes, it has already made 3 times as much difference as it will in sudden death.

If a player ties for first with such a big gap in their skills that they can be defeated by a single hole, they should just thank all the other holes on the course for being so biased in their favor up to that point.

 

[krupicka]

From watching him over the years, I believe Gavin primarily throws backhand, but throws forehand if it is the right throw for the hole. IMO at that level, righty/lefty friendly shouldn't even be a term used.

 

[ThrowBot]

Once in a non-sanctioned tourney, I was in a playoff where we agreed on a hole that wasn't part of the tournament layout. (The tourney was actually a temp layout on a regular course, so were able to use a "stock" hole with which both players were familiar and offered balance between available RHFH and RHBH lines.)

If fairness is a concern, I think that the players involved should have the option to agree on a playoff hole. Each player will advocate for their own skill sets so if they can agree then the selected hole will be fair. If the players can't agree then the TD will have to take control, but the players should at least have a chance to talk about it.

I don't think that win-by-2 throws or a minimum number of holes are good ideas. If you're tied after 36 holes (or 54 holes, or however many were played in regulation for the tournament) then all tied players have had ample opportunities to differentiate themselves from the competition. You don't need to draw it out even more, you just need a deciding factor. The easiest and most natural way to accomplish this is traditional sudden death.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Separate from hole balance, or maybe it's having multiple route options versus a primary route, there's the question of why a playoff is needed at all, reducing flukiness of a single hole and speed of completion. Basically what's almost as good as a coin flip that involves actual throwing?

 

[BionicRib]

From watching him over the years, I believe Gavin primarily throws backhand, but throws forehand if it is the right throw for the hole. IMO at that level, righty/lefty friendly shouldn't even be a term used.

I agree, Gavin used to never throw a forehand before, but in the last year or so after working on it he's been using it more. I saw him park hole 16 last fall at Oswego during a round with it. All I could say was "when did you learn that trick"