phrumphkin
Par Member
I don't know how long Paul is going to be up for hanging around here with us, but at least for now, this forum is NO LONGER Milk-Toast!:thmbup:
opcorn:opcorn:
opcorn:opcorn:-
Discover new ways to elevate your game with the updated DGCourseReview app!
It's entirely free and enhanced with features shaped by user feedback to ensure your best experience on the course. (App Store or Google Play)
Val drops Innova?
- Thread starter corin_brown
- Start date
- Status
PMcBeth
.:4X World Champion Paul McBeth:.
Ever? I never saw Juliana or Des play when they were winning their titles but as far as I know she had the most talent.
Now? statistically yes she would be.
Lol...he never struck me as the kind of personality the DGCR crowd could scare. :|
Vonbeezy1
Banned
This. Please 1000x over!
PMcBeth
.:4X World Champion Paul McBeth:.
I've learned to not get my feelings hurt
aka not read every message especially when salt is involved.Finny
Birdie Member
Take you out of this because, as I've said, you move the needle. And let's forget about past greats like Climo and Barry who don't tour full time.
Is it your position that Val, as the #1 female in Innova's team, should get less support than someone like Sexton?
New idea. Let's disregard accomplishments and push Innova to throw all the monies at Holly and Andrew Zimmern. Promote like crazy.
I was thinking the same two points here, but in more general terms. It seems this discussion (and several others in recent weeks also) point at two efforts/ideas that are dependent on each other, yet neither is in a place all of us would love to see: Grow the sport vs. Grow the industry. Certainly one compliments the other and drives in a way, but as I think about it, it almost seems like a chicken and egg scenario.
Paul got free Adidas through a product sponsorship, Adidas had a huge uptick in product sales, Adidas got paid, Paul got kicks. Understandably this isn't great for Paul and he is looking for a more mutually beneficial sponsorship...but if I am Adidas I have already benefitted and am unlikely to see increased benefit with an introduction of financial terms. More importantly in this instance, I ask did the DG industry grow or did the sport grow as a result of the McBeth/Adidas product sponsorship? I would argue neither did, thereby there was little to no gain in the DG microchasm from this relationship with two heavy hitters.
I see a similar line in this Val thread. Val is amazing, she is my daughter's favorite player so I have a personal desire to see her succeed as I have seen first hand the impact she has had on my little girl, but I also recognize that my little girl isn't the norm. Val and other top women in the sport inspired my daughter to start playing (I did not) and my daughter got her friends to play. Cool, the sport grew by 4 young women which is awesome. But those 4 girls don't drive the industry. Without the industry backing sustainment is difficult (certainly difficult for touring men also, but again World Champ vs. Middling touring pro isn't apples to apples I don't think) and I don't think industry backs the female growth the way it does the men (Philo gets a shot on Sportscenter and he gets a Destroyer...but viewership=short-term game growth=quick monetary increase from X amount of people who went and bought a Destroyer as their 1st disc after seeing that shot...so kind of makes sense I suppose in a sad way).
I don't know, I clearly don't gave this all hashed out in my head and am rambling on a Friday night, apologies for that, but just seems like somewhere these two sides of the same coin that a game we love is dependent on for success are at odds with each other as the sport continues to move forward and progress beyond a niche base.
corin_brown
Eagle Member
There's more to it than that in the above hypothetical. Such as, what kind of disc were each given and what did each do to earn that disc from the company? What if Val was given the Tern and Finny was given the Colt? Would those sales units numbers be the same? Or was Finny given a disc that was already 10x as popular as Val's disc?
The only way to compare Val & Finny's relative value to a company, as you measure it, would be to give each of them a disc of equal popularity and see who moved more discs.
Why didn't Innova give Val the Tern instead of the TL & Starfire?
"We all know the answer."
Sorry to "contridict"
the above assertion but you say you support Val's action then you say Innova did right by her? Kinda contradictory, no?PMcBeth
.:4X World Champion Paul McBeth:.
Let's take Val out of this and I ask you if Sexton is making enough because I KNOW you're listening to his commentary. He is arguably the best commentator in the sport but his $$$ is saying so. I think he should just quit now, there isn't the compensation for him to make a living talking about others.
You're argument is dead.
Wow. Cold blooded.
PMcBeth
.:4X World Champion Paul McBeth:.
There's more to it than that in the above hypothetical. Such as, what kind of disc were each given and what did each do to earn that disc from the company? What if Val was given the Tern and Finny was given the Colt? Would those sales units numbers be the same? Or was Finny given a disc that was already 10x as popular as Val's disc?
The only way to compare Val & Finny's relative value to a company, as you measure it, would be to give each of them a disc of equal popularity and see who moved more discs.
Why didn't Innova give Val the Tern instead of the TL & Starfire?
"We all know the answer."
Sorry to "contridict"
Tour Series Discs are chosen by the player. Val must have chose the TL
Nate picked the Firebird.
Idk the Starfire situation, there are plenty of reasons I could think of why the starfire but I don't know 100%
** I forgot making Team Star is what it takes for the Tour Series.
GoldeyeGolf
Birdie Member
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2016
- Messages
- 283
Sexton is one of the handful of players who, by being associated with the brand, can make a meaningful contribution to the bottom line. Val, I'm afraid, is not. Sexton absolutely deserves better support from Innova. That's just business, folks. Number of titles has nothing to do with it.
TL is a great disc, quite throwable to most skill levels. The Starfire is a nice disc on its own, but is in a very competitive control driver range going up against Firebirds, Thunderbirds, Orcs, PD, CD, etc and that's just from the Innova family discs...
It's too bad there isn't a good answer to this.
Disc golf is doing a terrible job attracting female participants, especially females who want to compete. As a result, the women who do compete do so in smaller fields and have a smaller overall impact on the sport. Because the fields are smaller, the financial gain for winning is smaller. Since the impact is smaller, there is the argument that sponsorship should be financially smaller. All of which does nothing for the fact that disc golf is doing a terrible job of attracting female participants. It particularly does not help attract female participants who want a competitive environment. And so the big wheel keeps on turnin'...
We probably need a good idea to break that cycle, but I can't think of one right now. Or anytime in the last 20ish years when it has come up. :\
Disc golf is doing a terrible job attracting female participants, especially females who want to compete. As a result, the women who do compete do so in smaller fields and have a smaller overall impact on the sport. Because the fields are smaller, the financial gain for winning is smaller. Since the impact is smaller, there is the argument that sponsorship should be financially smaller. All of which does nothing for the fact that disc golf is doing a terrible job of attracting female participants. It particularly does not help attract female participants who want a competitive environment. And so the big wheel keeps on turnin'...
We probably need a good idea to break that cycle, but I can't think of one right now. Or anytime in the last 20ish years when it has come up. :\
Finny
Birdie Member
I mean, I'm not sure how to respond. This doesn't make any sense. I mean that I literally can't understand what you want to say.
My best guess is that you don't want to answer the question.
And I agree, I do love Sexton's commentary. He's a natural.
Finally, not sure what killed my argument, but it wasn't you. I'll just restate my position. I don't think that the money generated by Sexton or Val is enough to explain why Innova didn't support a 4x World champ more than a guy with essentially zero significant wins. And I think Nate should be supported MORE!
If you think that Val's 4 Worlds matter less because she's a woman, that strikes me as weird and maybe sexist.
corndog23
Newbie
Seems to me that Innova always looks out for #1, themselves. Which is totally fine. They are in the business of making money. Props. They do not, however, seem to be in the business of growing the sport.
StevenSeagal
Par Member
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2016
- Messages
- 194
I hate this comparison to no end. The Sexton Firebird is not a regular Firebird with a signature on it. The soft glow plastic is unique to that disc and has been well received by a ton of people who normally would've laughed at the idea of bagging a glow champ firebird. Sexton convinced a whole hell of a lot of people that they should buy this disc by being a surgeon with it.
Even if you gave Val the Tern that disc wouldn't have the mojo surrounding the Sexton firebird.
I think a comparison between a Val Starfire and a hypothetical Sexton Dart would be a lot more fair, especially considering they're both discs no one cares about no matter how well they throw them. If Val was causing waves throwing a tern like Sexton does with the Firebird you would have an point but she doesn't. Hannah Leatherman already has a tour series Tern anyways so giving Val the Tern is kind of stepping on her toes, especially considering they're basically the same disc.
Honestly I wish people would stop placing so much significance behind signature discs which are functionally no different from their counterparts and instead encourage the manufacturer pro-player collaborations we're seeing with discs like the Sexton Firebird of Wysoki Compass.
corin_brown
Eagle Member
We probably need a good idea to break that cycle, but I can't think of one right now. Or anytime in the last 20ish years when it has come up. :\
Here's an idea: how about asking women why they don't like disc golf? And then listen?
Eh...it's more of the competition thing, probably. The Women's Open field in a World's is pretty thin. There are only a handful of players capable of being competitive. The Men's Open field is pretty deep. That makes it harder for a man to show up and win multiple times. It's not so much that there should be no respect for winning the Women's field four times, it's just that it really isn't = to winning the Men's field four times.
That's not Val's fault, of course. That goes back to us being lousy at attracting athletic, competitive females to disc golf.
- Status
