Val drops Innova?

[SonicGuy]

Holy Moses what a thread.

If you want to be paid the most you have to be the best. FPO is the best of the lousiest, and the lousiest of the best.

I have two daughters and if they decide to play competitively it will be in open gender divisions. I don't want my daughters to think beating three other extremely casual untalented girls is something to be proud of. My daughters may never win a tournament against the guys, but they will know how they truly stand. And who knows, maybe they pull off a couple AM wins.

 

[DavidSauls]

SD86, that math is true, but only applies to the sales of signature discs. I don't know what the sponsorship contracts are like, but presumably they involve more.

How much do these players increase sale of the overall brand?

I suspect the top player in the world adds a little something to the overall sales---for being the best player, and a highly recognized name.

The top female player? Probably a lot less. Though it does help Innova proclaim itself as the disc of champions if it can show a lot of champions throwing its discs, as opposed to being the disc of a champion. But only Innova knows what that's really worth.

 

[Three Putt]

The sport is not big enough for Val leaving to matter except to Val and Innova. They don't have her anymore and she's not with them. That's it, nothing more.

To claim a disc golf company who makes all their money off of disc golf does not want the sport to grow is kind of insane.

True.

There is not really a downside to Innova for this in my opinion. Almost nobody buying their golf discs know who these players are, other than if they read their name on a golf disc they buy. The signature discs do more to promote the players than they do to promote the discs IMO. So a very small % of their customers know who Val is, much less that she left. If the Women's game grows, they will have the resources to get back in and poach some top players. As far as a business decision goes, they are fine.

Val is fine as well. She seems to be transitioning away from a touring player. Top 5 bonuses only help if you are playing, and it seems like she is focusing on opening a business. She is probably walking away from negligible income.

Bottom line: It's not a move that really hurts either party.

So, she announced that she was dropping Innova as a way to highlight what we already know: Women's disc golf is not booming like Men's disc golf is. We are not seeing any growth there. Something is wrong. She got us talking about it, anyway.

If she has ideas and can translate that into action, maybe something will change for Women's disc golf. That depends on what her next move is. From a purely PR standpoint, it has me paying attention to what the next move is when I wasn't before. So if she has a follow-up to this, the announcement is a good way to get the ball rolling.

 

[DiscFifty]

It's not obvious that the women's side has the most potential for growth.

In all likelihood, in number of participants, there will be more growth on the men's side.

It's the number of participants (customers, spectators) that matter, not the percentage.

You're not thinking from a business sense. The male side will continue to grow and prosper, the seeds have already been planted. As a profitable business already making money from the male side, you just keep doing what you've been doing. The female side of disc golf as far as business goes, is ripe for the taking. Even though we may not see alot of recent growth on the pro side, I think it's obvious the casual side of women's disc golf is growing fast and that will return a profit eventually for those willing to invest in it right now and build a brand women can relate to.

 

[DinosaurThunder]

This has to be some of the most sanctimonious **** i've ever seen posted here.

Not everybody shares your opinion. Get over it. I have a sour taste in my mouth from all of your whining and white knighting.
.

Thank you! Paul brought factual opinions to a thread of speculation and the whining commences...

 

[Finny]

Holy Moses what a thread.

If you want to be paid the most you have to be the best. FPO is the best of the lousiest, and the lousiest of the best.

I have two daughters and if they decide to play competitively it will be in open gender divisions. I don't want my daughters to think beating three other extremely casual untalented girls is something to be proud of. My daughters may never win a tournament against the guys, but they will know how they truly stand. And who knows, maybe they pull off a couple AM wins.

Would you allow them to play FPO if there were more women who played? Do they play on boys teams in other sports? If so, will that change as they get older?

I'm not trying to troll here. I'd really like to know the answers. I have 6-year-old twin girls, so this is in my wheelhouse.

 

[DiscFifty]

Holy Moses what a thread.

If you want to be paid the most you have to be the best. FPO is the best of the lousiest, and the lousiest of the best.

I have two daughters and if they decide to play competitively it will be in open gender divisions. I don't want my daughters to think beating three other extremely casual untalented girls is something to be proud of. My daughters may never win a tournament against the guys, but they will know how they truly stand. And who knows, maybe they pull off a couple AM wins.

I say let them compete in FPO, win or lose there. Ratings are equal across the board, that will tell them "where they truly stand".

 

[Finny]

Thank you! Paul brought factual opinions to a thread of speculation and the whining commences...

"Factual opinions"

 

[Three Putt]

You're not thinking from a business sense. The male side will continue to grow and prosper, the seeds have already been planted. As a profitable business already making money from the male side, you just keep doing what you've been doing. The female side of disc golf as far as business goes, is ripe for the taking. Even though we may not see alot of recent growth on the pro side, I think it's obvious the casual side of women's disc golf is growing fast and that will return a profit eventually for those willing to invest in it right now and build a brand women can relate to.

I don't really disagree, but it's a strategy. Innova has been around the block with Frisbee sports and knows that going back to the IFA days, it has been male dominated. They have watched things develop over a long period of time and from their experience, they don't see what is happening now with Women's disc golf as something to put a bunch of promotional resources into. They don't seem to agree with the strategy. Or maybe they do, they just don't like the timing. Hard to know.

 

[DavidSauls]

You're not thinking from a business sense. The male side will continue to grow and prosper, the seeds have already been planted. As a profitable business already making money from the male side, you just keep doing what you've been doing. The female side of disc golf as far as business goes, is ripe for the taking. Even though we may not see alot of recent growth on the pro side, I think it's obvious the casual side of women's disc golf is growing fast and that will return a profit eventually for those willing to invest in it right now and build a brand women can relate to.

But I am.

If the women's side grows 10 times as fast as the men's side, the men's side will still produce more new customers.

If a particular company invests (puts its money) into that women's-side growth, they may not reap great rewards---only a portion of those new customers will be new customers for that particular company.

Anyway, it's a gamble, and Innova's money. It's fine for us to say Innova should invest (spend money) on women, and invest in youth programs, and invest in the pro tour, and invest in television, and invest in all sorts of things that might get them a return on investment. Or might not. Innova invests where they see a return, and puts a lot of money and effort into efforts where they see it as more of a give-back than an investment, but it's their money so they get to choose. I can't fault them for their choice.

 

[corndog23]

This has to be some of the most sanctimonious **** i've ever seen posted here.

Not everybody shares your opinion. Get over it. I have a sour taste in my mouth from all of your whining and white knighting.


Four PROTECTED DIVISION world championships. Yes people are trying to downplay it compared to winning open. The fact that you can't see the difference is YOUR problem.

You go win four "protected division" world championships and tell me how easy it is. I'm not saying she's the greatest thing the sport has ever seen, but by golly she is one of the greatest women the sport has ever seen. That has to mean something.

 

[SonicGuy]

Would you allow them to play FPO if there were more women who played? Do they play on boys teams in other sports? If so, will that change as they get older?

I'm not trying to troll here. I'd really like to know the answers. I have 6-year-old twin girls, so this is in my wheelhouse.

To be honest I wouldn't prevent them from playing FPO of they had their heart set on it, I would just discourage it. Disc golf is against the course, there is no danger of being injured by a more physically developed boy. The only danger is losing, which I know Millennials find to be extremely scary. If my girl was good enough to contribute on a team for a non contact sport like basketball and soccer I would absolutely encourage them to play on the "boys" team. But again there you have things like locker room social dynamics that make it tricky, which disc.golf does not have.

Sports can either be for camaraderie, competition, or recreation. Team sports require organization to play, it is hard to play baseball with a couple people. In most cases team sports require entry into some sort of competitive league even if you only want the recreation or camaraderie.

Disc golf is not like this. The only reason to do tournaments is competitive. People aren't really social, that is what leagues are for. It is a lot of waiting around, it would be much more fun recreationally to avoid tournaments. If competition is the single goal of disc golf tournaments I see no reason to handicap your performance by competing in a gender protected division.

 

[Anon]

That has to mean something.

It does. But not as much as an open world championship.

 

[corndog23]

It does. But not as much as an open world championship.

Who here has said otherwise?

 

[SonicGuy]

I say let them compete in FPO, win or lose there. Ratings are equal across the board, that will tell them "where they truly stand".

By that rationale you could play the day before the tournament and see how your score compared to the field. But of course we know that doesn't mean anything. Just like if you shoot hot at AM and have a better score than the Open winner, you didn't win open.

 

[Anon]

Who here has said otherwise?

Every single person saying Val should be getting as much support as Paul/Nate/Etc.

Are you even reading the thread?

 

[corndog23]

Every single person saying Val should be getting as much support as Paul/Nate/Etc.

Are you even reading the thread?

Has anybody said she deserves the McBeth treatment?!?!? No...go back and check.

 

[ru4por]

"Factual opinions"

Factual opinion of a sponsored player, factual opinion of a touring pro, factual opinion of a sponsored touring pro......which as it turns out, is the topic. I dare say, I carries more weight than speculative opinion. Of course, if you are a sponsored touring pro, the stones you cast would also carry weight. But, I cannot imagine why you took it to a personal level.

 

[tomte]

Holy Moses what a thread.

If you want to be paid the most you have to be the best. FPO is the best of the lousiest, and the lousiest of the best.

I have two daughters and if they decide to play competitively it will be in open gender divisions. I don't want my daughters to think beating three other extremely casual untalented girls is something to be proud of. My daughters may never win a tournament against the guys, but they will know how they truly stand. And who knows, maybe they pull off a couple AM wins.

This sounds very strange if you turn it around and there would be very many women playing and only a few man. And those 4-5 men would win everything and all thousands of women nothing. Just because they have a different body...
There is nothing wrong with closed division. And there are ratings.

Honestly - if we all complain about women not playing and not getting enough exposure, maybe we should start filming their lead cards instead of the mens (chase cards). The women are close enough in competition that it is good entertainment value and probably a big market as well.

I do think though, that Vals reasons for leaving Innova are not that easy as getting the wrong signature discs. There might be many small reasons, some disappointment over the years - who knows. All we can do is support her efforts to make "our sport" bigger and exciting.

Btw. businesses are not thought to make money. They are meant to fulfill our needs. Be that food, transportation, entertainment... Everything more is just plain greed. Also if you have a business that can make a lot of money from one product, it is more than normal to use that money to promote another one or start another business or donate it to education/arts/culture. If Innova failed to use the money they made with their products the correct way (promote and fulfill the needs of their players, invest it into the right "direction"), Val made the perfectly correct decision: Leaving a bad business.

 

[ericb45696]

Oh my. I thought the Reddit thread was interesting, but this one....