Reach back era is over, long live the whip.

[ThrowaEnvy]

Tip of the whip makes sense... in fact, that's the most salient point I gleaned from this discussion:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132500, the difference being that the OP there said he was keeping the throwing arm passive and cranking up the initial angular acceleration with a low radius twist (forcing the trailing arm held close to pass around the body) with the throwing arm then unfurling like a whip.

That's exactly what I thought of watching Dave D...

I love the overhead view with the overlay of bendy spots to make the whip.. If this was a year ago it would have blown my mind.

The "sling" that he's talking about is the straight line/path that ones arm and disc would take to throw. I watched a lot of Dan Beto back in the day and I was definitely "slinging" it for years. Super accurate but no great distance. Straight path from reachback to release without the pitstop into the power pocket... once I incorporated the power pocket blammo 40'+ instantly.

 

[pmay5]

That's exactly what I thought of watching Dave D...

I love the overhead view with the overlay of bendy spots to make the whip.. If this was a year ago it would have blown my mind.

The "sling" that he's talking about is the straight line/path that ones arm and disc would take to throw. I watched a lot of Dan Beto back in the day and I was definitely "slinging" it for years. Super accurate but no great distance. Straight path from reachback to release without the pitstop into the power pocket... once I incorporated the power pocket blammo 40'+ instantly.

So how is your accuracy, with the whip? It seems to me that curling into the power pocket, then unleashing in a circular motion, and releasing at just the right time (to be on target) leaves a lot of room for error.
Does it just take a ton of time on the practice field to accomplish or is there something else to get your accuracy?

 

[slowplastic]

Ok, I've watched it a time or two more and I still really like this video as being accessible but still good. But reading comments here I can see how there can still be different interpretations, etc.

Part of it I think is I'm not getting hung up on the terms he uses exactly, but on what he's meaning by those terms and especially how he is demonstrating it all at the same time.

Essentially the important thing he's saying is focus on the end of the shot, the hit and acceleration through the hit...not a huge "reach back". Honestly this video would have benefited me a lot more than the Schusterick driving tips video that I really started on years ago...not that Schusterick's video was wrong by any means but it was so easy for me as a beginner to see the exaggerated "reachback" and leg/body turn and things that he does and think that those parts were the important things. Dave D is focusing on the end goal, but I would still think of it as a backswing or a "load" rather than a "wind up" that he says. I just know that as I've thought of it as a turn or a load stage with my torso and shoulders, rather than a "reach back" I've improved massively in ease and consistency. Also he does say that everything going to the shoulder is muscular, he's saying the same things just in different words I think. Power the shoulder turn by loading and with the body/weight shift, and let the arm do the work coming forward on its own.

The possible issue with that segment of the video is when he doesn't extend the forearm/elbow back, players may overcurl the disc into their chest or armpit and think that they need to spin or fling the disc out...this isn't right and this isn't what he's doing. But I could definitely see beginners or some people simplifying it to this beach frisbee type of throw incorrectly, by starting at that "right pec" position and flinging out. Instead of using your body mechanics to naturally get the disc to this position.

As far as "whip" vs. "sling" I look at that as the old DGR terms of no-hit vs. full-hit. Or as a grip slip vs. active ejection. I get minor grip slips, I know this, and that's why I throw in that 60ish MPH range that he also says. This is all accurate I think. What he's showing with how the disc pivots comes from how good throwers have their swing arcs pull the disc in front of them at that last instant. So the disc ends up going way faster than the hand. So that's what I think of with "whip" vs. "sling"...sling is the disc kind of slips out of your grip so it's going similar speed to how fast your hand can send it, whereas whip is that extra disc pivot accelerating/pulling the disc so much faster than your hand is going.

But, it's not as simple as "just whip/eject the disc"...that's the goal but there's lots of things for swing plane and body balance/alignment so your shoulders turn centered to be able to have this happen naturally.

Another visualization I think would be in a FH...think of a beginner FH where the disc comes out slow like a wounded duck at the same speed as their arm moves. Then think how Eagle can just barely move his arm and the disc rockets out 10x faster than his forearm is moving...that's that active ejection arc that's so much easier to feel in a FH for most people.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

So how is your accuracy, with the whip? It seems to me that curling into the power pocket, then unleashing in a circular motion, and releasing at just the right time (to be on target) leaves a lot of room for error.
Does it just take a ton of time on the practice field to accomplish or is there something else to get your accuracy?

Well.. I walked around the house for a solid week, driving the dog nuts with my invisible disc... but I could immediately hear the snap from my hand or at least the wind movement. I would say there was a weird adjustment period for 2-3 weeks. It's not that I totally changed my throw it's just that instead of a 3 count it was 4 and instead of a straight disc/arm motion there was a pitstop where the hand tucked and the elbow cocked.

Results started to show up immediately, even with slower speed throws, I just connected easier and often providing the disc with more spin with less effort.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Most of the problems that I see with beginning players is the failure to understand the basic mechanics of a throw that leads to strong-arming. I generally teach them to reach back solely for the purpose of helping them understand that the "whip" action that is necessary doesn't come from attempting to use the shoulder muscle group to move their arm around their body, but instead from the turn of the hips and turn of the torso that follows the hips. DD's focus on the hit and that a reach back is unnecessary is fine, but not as helpful to beginners as making sure that they are pulling the disc in more of a line than a big circle around their body and I can see how this might be more confusing than starting them with a reach back.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Yes, and saying the reachback is unnecessary is counter productive. You need to load the whip before you crack it, there's so many pieces to understand but I can see how this could be very helpful to intermediate players.

 

[Lazerface]

Dave is wrong. I reach waaaaaaaaaay back and can hit 250 feet with ease. Amateur video

 

[pmay5]

Well.. I walked around the house for a solid week, driving the dog nuts with my invisible disc... but I could immediately hear the snap from my hand or at least the wind movement. I would say there was a weird adjustment period for 2-3 weeks. It's not that I totally changed my throw it's just that instead of a 3 count it was 4 and instead of a straight disc/arm motion there was a pitstop where the hand tucked and the elbow cocked.

Results started to show up immediately, even with slower speed throws, I just connected easier and often providing the disc with more spin with less effort.

Just to help with your post count - what are the 4 counts of your throw now?

BTW-I figured out a new way to practice today, disposable paper/plastic plates, about the size of a disc, thrown in the garage. She has so many of them, she'll never miss a few!! :thmbup:

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Just to help with your post count - what are the 4 counts of your throw now?

BTW-I figured out a new way to practice today, disposable paper/plastic plates, about the size of a disc, thrown in the garage. She has so many of them, she'll never miss a few!! :thmbup:

Haha thanks..

So I use a SLOW motion X step..
Step 1 - nothing really just take a step.
Step 2 - into the X.. Load the hand, bring arm forward
Step 3 - end of X step.. Drawback, load the arm
Step 4 - plant foot.. move hand/ disc into the power pocket.
Step 4.5 - weight forward.. And unload!!

It makes sense in my head.. I may revisit this after work haha

 

[tomsdiscs]

I have been watching Seppo as of late, and have noticed his rather abbreviated reach-back, resulting in distance in the league of Eagle and the other big dogs, but regardless, I still think Seppo is his own animal, I do not think everybody can get mega-distance with an abbreviated reach-back, it requires everything else being perfect.

You should use as much reach-back as needed to load your levers, you are trying to load a spindle, too much reach-back can throw off your spindle with the loaded levers, and that is why I was never very fond of Schusterick's vids in the past saying you should reach all the way back.

Knowing you are loading a spindle with levers, think about shoulder width - for years I have been hearing people say what an advantage it is to have long arms, yet noticing the shorter guys fill out most of the slots on the list of top distance throwers, so I do not buy the long arm theory, I think narrow shoulders make for a faster spindle, too bad I am built like an NFL linebacker.

And James Conrad was a collegiate high-jumper, which requires almost perfect timing from head to toe, way more complicated than a disc golf throw, so you are watching an elite athlete with head to toe coordination applying those skills to the disc golf throw.

 

[slowplastic]

And James Conrad was a collegiate high-jumper, which requires almost perfect timing from head to toe, way more complicated than a disc golf throw, so you are watching an elite athlete with head to toe coordination applying those skills to the disc golf throw.

Really? If that's the case then his super long run up routine makes more sense now.

 

[sidewinder22]

I have been watching Seppo as of late, and have noticed his rather abbreviated reach-back, resulting in distance in the league of Eagle and the other big dogs, but regardless, I still think Seppo is his own animal, I do not think everybody can get mega-distance with an abbreviated reach-back, it requires everything else being perfect.

You should use as much reach-back as needed to load your levers, you are trying to load a spindle, too much reach-back can throw off your spindle with the loaded levers, and that is why I was never very fond of Schusterick's vids in the past saying you should reach all the way back.

Knowing you are loading a spindle with levers, think about shoulder width - for years I have been hearing people say what an advantage it is to have long arms, yet noticing the shorter guys fill out most of the slots on the list of top distance throwers, so I do not buy the long arm theory, I think narrow shoulders make for a faster spindle, too bad I am built like an NFL linebacker.

And James Conrad was a collegiate high-jumper, which requires almost perfect timing from head to toe, way more complicated than a disc golf throw, so you are watching an elite athlete with head to toe coordination applying those skills to the disc golf throw.

Hand size also makes a difference.

... just from a mechanical leverage stand point and how all your arm levers all stack/couple together and extending the arm wingspan more than normal. If you have two identical length levers(double/triple/quad.. pendulum) or arms, but they are made up of different lower arm/upper arm/hand/shoulder ratio dimensions, it's like shifting gears. Shorter levers closer to the body turn faster and can put more force into a longer lever at the end like moving the fulcrum on a seesaw. All the top throwers that are on the average or shorter side have skinny shoulders.

So if you changed the length ratio of this double pendulum Dingle Arm, you can greatly vary the max amount of speed and force the lower arm is going to hit with.

 

[sidewinder22]

How to make to the tip of the whip move faster:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=DLo97jXn5Wo#t=7m38s

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Well FWIW this really helped me...

Came out of here or the other one.. Post #42
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132180

 

[rhatton1]

And James Conrad was a collegiate high-jumper,

That makes so much sense at last! His bouncy walk and run up had bugged me for ages as it seemed so familiar, I've been watching a high jump run up!

 

[DinosaurThunder]

Our supreme overload has spoken. All the hail the whip.

 

[DiscFifty]

Fwiw..the speed reference to how fast the disc accelerates at the point of the whip is....huge. For lack of a better way to describe it... a disc moving YMS (your max speed) the entire time from start to finish will not go as far as a disc that starts out at zero and accelerates to YMS at the time of the release. Now if you delay that acceleration to YMS right until the whip happens, and at this point you are around 60-80% YMS, and then EXPLODE to YMS at the whip, your disc will go ever further...much further.

 

[Dan Ensor]

He should have just posted this again:




Nobody cares about your bent elbow, snake strike, or whip Dave. Do you even disc golf???

 

[Casey 1988]

Hopefully newer players who think you need to walk down the teepad backwards to get proper reach back will watch this and stop doing that ridiculous looking approach. opcorn:

Agrees unless you are doing a power throw on what constitutes as a long hole for the individual you do not need to do this. It is more the players who watch some of the pro players who do both the reach back and the whip but only see the first part. Also some people do not understand how tall or how long legged some of the Pro players are compared to there own body. I still do a long run up with the Hop in it for holes that are almost 500 feet, 490 feet or more.

 

[Casey 1988]

He should have just posted this again:




Nobody cares about your bent elbow, snake strike, or whip Dave. Do you even disc golf???

I would say Dave Still plays. On the other Innova Page Spin TV he is seen playing. Also Dave used to be the world Distance holder for thrown disc before Innova discs were made by Dave when he was using a Shuttle Puppy, before they called it a World Distance Record for Flying Disc and some modern World Flying Disc Federation (WFDF) rules came into the World Distance Record for Flying Disc like amount of throws a person can do. I just wish the tail wind was not permissible as now they are lunching a disc with a high tailwind at about 35-40 mph.