Hilariously Bad Backhand Form, Please Advise

[Brychanus]

I think this might be too much words/thinking for what I need right now, but I will try to parse it and put it on context before moving on to asking what I think I need in this moment.



Does this mean that if one does have "athletic legs", then one does not need to think about bracing because it "just happens" as I mentioned on one side of the spectrum? And if one does not have "athletic legs", then either one "cannot" brace or one would need to force it (and potentially open themselves up to jerky movement/injury) or somewhere in between those two things?



(This does not require comment but FWIW I've been following your training plan at the gym - it's been fun! And doing lots of jumping back and forth and up and down and "teaching" my brain that my ankles/knees can handle it.)



In my mind I was trying to get closer to the full sequence of movement here, at least in a "door frame drill throw" type of way, to try to avoid over-isolating. But if it doesn't seem like that was the case, then mission not accomplished.

Moving forward to "what I need now" is, I think, just as straightforward as possible - is what I'm doing in the video/what I described myself doing in the video, a thought/action that I should continue with, or should I discard it because it's not helpful/dangerous/etc? Is it closer or further from where I need to be headed than before? (I find it hard to believe it could be further because 3 posts ago I had a video where I'm clearly throwing off of my back foot/front toes with no brace at all - but I'm not the expert here.)

(And maybe that's not what I need now - feel free to let me know if you think that's the case.)

My fault. By undercomplicate I mean don't parse all the words. Do/feel.

Try his hopping crush the can. You will only be able to do it correctly if you do it with "athletic resistance" as you land. Otherwise you are collapsing in the brace and venting power.

 

[ninjabq]

Hitting the can accurately... not as easy at it seems.

(A few iterations including some obviously bad, some better, + blooper, + two standstills at the end)

 

[Brychanus]

1. Stand closer to the can.
2. As you land on it, resist the ground with the leg (looking like you're getting there, will be easier coming right down on top of it in balance).

 

[ninjabq]

1. Stand closer to the can.
2. As you land on it, resist the ground with the leg (looking like you're getting there, will be easier coming right down on top of it in balance).

I'll have to spend some time this weekend, uhh... acquiring cans.

 

[ninjabq]

Workouts: I won't take two legged lifts away from you if you like them, but neuromuscularly/balance wise/supporting muscle wise I strongly suggest some one/split legged/lunge walking lunges in each direction etc. I had trouble sticking with it too at first and eventually just went "all in" and scrapped my old workout routine in favor of my DG specific one, mileage varies.

I've been doing your workout "all in" (still in phase 1) for about 6 weeks now, twice a week. I may have already mentioned that I do the Nick Krush warm up routine, then your workout l, then royal coil/Pratt/ride the bull, weighted and unweighted.

As I get into that and continue to do some other drilling in the field and playing rounds, I'm really starting to understand the importance of building this athletic one-legged balanced/strength foundation. It's like, no amount of drilling will help if my body isn't ready to "accept" the brace. If I had already had this foundation, bracing would come more easily when adding any degree of momentum. But since I didn't (and still don't really - just now getting close to 2 minute holds on the iso lunges), it was almost impossible for me to "feel" the right thing doing anything beyond a small weight shift. But as I improve the foundation, adding a little more gusto to the weight shift results in a more natural brace, even without much "brace-specific" disc golf drilling.

Side note: I finally beat my buddy in a round for the first time in a while, and really it all came down to just making every single putt from 15 feet and in (plus a few more outside of that which would've been a total crapshoot before the practice basket). I also went even on the front half of my local course for the first time ever, and that came down to the putting and not trying to rip every drive off the tee. I'm still gonna put an inordinate amount of time into improving my distance though

 

[Brychanus]

I've been doing your workout "all in" (still in phase 1) for about 6 weeks now, twice a week. I may have already mentioned that I do the Nick Krush warm up routine, then your workout l, then royal coil/Pratt/ride the bull, weighted and unweighted.

As I get into that and continue to do some other drilling in the field and playing rounds, I'm really starting to understand the importance of building this athletic one-legged balanced/strength foundation. It's like, no amount of drilling will help if my body isn't ready to "accept" the brace. If I had already had this foundation, bracing would come more easily when adding any degree of momentum. But since I didn't (and still don't really - just now getting close to 2 minute holds on the iso lunges), it was almost impossible for me to "feel" the right thing doing anything beyond a small weight shift. But as I improve the foundation, adding a little more gusto to the weight shift results in a more natural brace, even without much "brace-specific" disc golf drilling.

Side note: I finally beat my buddy in a round for the first time in a while, and really it all came down to just making every single putt from 15 feet and in (plus a few more outside of that which would've been a total crapshoot before the practice basket). I also went even on the front half of my local course for the first time ever, and that came down to the putting and not trying to rip every drive off the tee. I'm still gonna put an inordinate amount of time into improving my distance though

Nice!

And I do want to say something publicly in case there are lurkers: I don't question the idea that the brace process should really be a fluid, smooth, safe, and combination of stopping & redirecting force. It should be very much an "organic" and not forced movement. People are literally now breaking their pelvises and lower spines now trying to copy certain bracing styles with neither the body conditioning nor control to do it safely. I am not touching that with a ten foot pole myself.

I do think in any case however there is simply a degree of baseline coordination and athleticism you need to brace well and safely, and I am personally very sensitized to it having started on the weak & pathology end of the spectrum. I think for anyone not used to the "athletic" part involved in bracing, it's just plain good sense to help your body handle the neuromuscular and muscular parts of the move.

Now on the flip side, you can definitely emphasize too much training of the body and miss the points that (1) bracing and your body also improve just by drilling and throwing and (2) if you turn it into just a weightlifting exercise- guess what, you will probably start to trap your center between your feet to stabilize against the weight whether you like it or not. So don't go so far you make it counterproductive.

Thus, in the long term I only do 1-2 days of intensive leg training involving weights per week (Mondays at minimum & this is when I do the most challenging leg work because I probably won't play a round for a couple days after that) and the rest of my time is on throwing (with one or two days of upper body bodyweight and resistance band exercises). I am on a 3 day break right now and then just doing a casual round tomorrow AM because I put my legs through a ton on Sunday and Monday - listen to your body.

For a "weekend warrior" like myself, this strategy is working well for me so far.

I also learned alot from Joonas Merela about how he schedules volume for pros in the offseason and he uses a lot of evidence-based techniques that were interesting - but if you ain't doing DG as a full time gig, doing what you are doing now is much, much better than nothing.

 

[Naenae]

I also went even on the front half of my local course for the first time ever, and that came down to the putting and not trying to rip every drive off the tee.

By Jove! I think he's go……..

I'm still gonna put an inordinate amount of time into improving my distance though

 

[ninjabq]

By Jove! I think he's go……..

I am a simple man. Disc go far make tingle in belly.

 

[ninjabq]

Decided to work on some swing plane-y stuff because (a) mine is flat af (b) thought it might help with other issues too. Also thought it would be a good use of net. Not sure it was worth the mosquitos.

 

[Brychanus]

I'm bringing a mosquito bomb next time I go camping. I still like camping, but I get crankier about the bugs over time.

Front side is making progress. In standstills, gotta get you more "on top" of your rear leg walking your whole body back like Elephant walk or Reverse Stride or Double Dragon.

The whole rear side feels straightly elevated and weightless and like you have a ton of time after you get there.

 

[sidewinder22]

Keep your rear elbow close to hip.

 

[Kennets]

Decided to work on some swing plane-y stuff because (a) mine is flat af (b) thought it might help with other issues too. Also thought it would be a good use of net. Not sure it was worth the mosquitos.

You're making progress! That's the best upper body action I've seen so far. Good stuff!

 

[ninjabq]

Yeah seems like I have a hard time getting into door frame position on the rear side. Tried working on that in the morning and then the rear arm in the evening. I tried bringing it down during the throw. When I try just keeping it at the side like don't spill the beverage, I have a hard time getting any side bend.

Here's the culmination of the sessions:

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[sidewinder22]

Looks like you are trying to keep your head down and collapsing posture. Your hips slide too far forward while your head stays too far back. Your front foot also plants quite flat footed instead of plantar flexed and resisting collapse. Keep your head/chin stacked up above your shoulders/hips/feet.

 

[ninjabq]

Back to the park today. Tried to focus on the plantar flexion and head up to varied success.

I parked the basket on like 1/4 of my throws today. Prior to this I almost never have. During the summer I practice in the soccer field but it's been overgrown. So I practice on this hole because it has a natural shape for a stock 250-300ft RHBH anyway. And it's two baskets on this tee, the farther one being more like 375. One day I'll reach it

Felt like the first throw was the best.



After this, took some footage from behind. This angle really highlights how my rear arm is causing me to drop my rear shoulder/side early. Second throw in the video is me trying to punch it down as mention previously, but that resulted in everything becoming too spinny.

 

[sidewinder22]

1. Your rear foot is spinning out in backswing and forward swing. You are pushing upward vertically on the rear foot as you start moving targetward so you are losing ground pressure on rear foot and essentially jumping off it. You should be dropping lower vertically as you shift targetward so pressure increases on rear foot and can maintain torque without spinning out. Lot of my drills work on this, Door Frame/Bow Arrow, Crush the Can, Swivel Stairs, Turbo Encabulator.

2. Keep your rear elbow close to body. There is no need to punch with it. You need to tuck the elbow into your body like pitcher.

OLD 8m44s.

 

[Brychanus]

Trying to figure out how to help you with point (1). I used to have that kind of leg and balance confusion.

I kind of think the rear side load+tilted balance + "crushy" part of it seems good to focus on because your legs aren't used to the ground contact and sequence. So I looked for an exaggeration.

This kid has a cool yet slightly inefficient "Hershyzer" batting stride. I occasionally throw a standstill like this when I can tell my body is shying away or having trouble getting balanced "on top" of the rear leg. I chose this slightly raw one because you can see how pronounced the "crush" is because of how he initially cued up the move (his center is a little too far back - you want to move better than this so you don't jam up and hyperextend the knee when you land):

If this batter was "kicking the can" into the stride sweeping a bit lower to the ground, it would be much more like an efficient backhand can crush. Thus this clever drill. I'm such a fan of it because the initial kick back is a way to wind up the whole move while (1) anchoring it into the rear foot, (2) setting up the "swivel stairs" part of the shift, (3) tilting the balance, and (4) getting you to "shift underneath" standing tall, which makes it easier to feel and control at first and maximizes what you get from gravity. I use this frequently myself.

You should feel like your whole body is kind of "sweeping" in under you into the plant. It should feel like you have a lot of time and balance on the rear leg and like you are slightly "floating" or "elevating" in the kickback.

Swing leg & whole body back, kick the can, crush in the plant baby.

 

[ninjabq]

Swinging the leg back to get on top of the rear leg makes sense to me, as does starting statically on top of it, or how we get there from the "prep" step to the X step (even if I'm incapable of doing it right from any of those). What makes a lot less sense to me is how to get on top of the rear leg from a standstill. I tried going over the figure 8 video a few times to see how SW was doing it and tried to emulate it, but can't say it went well.

I suppose I was "cheating" it by bouncing up off the ball of my rear foot as SW noticed, although I think I also thought that was somewhat right since that seems more like the advice given for my ride the bull earlier. I see where it's wrong, but again can't quite figure out how to post on top of the rear leg from the standstill.

(Practiced before I saw your latest post @Brychanus).

I tried some reverse stride and hershyzer today, it wasn't good but I also didn't spend much time on it.





I spent a little time on the rear arm thing. As I said before it feels terrible to keep the rear arm down like this. Not bringing it back/up in the backswing makes my backswing feel bad and like I can't rotate my shoulders properly at all. I realize this rear arm down thing is to keep it out of the way, but it seems pretty common for players to raise it in the backswing, right? i.e. Gurthie, Feldberg. If possible I'd like to find some middle ground here rather than trying to force my body to do something it really doesn't like doing. I have terrible shoulder mobility so that could be relevant.



Here's where my standstill ended up after today, tried not to bounce up off the rear ball of my foot. IMO felt, looked, and resulted worse than the other day's throws.

 

[Brychanus]

Hershyzer: setup was decent but you suddenly turn away from the target even further as you shift forward. You are trying to rotate into your rear hip rather than "stand" on it like you would when walking. Just keep that setup then come off more "sideways" directly out of the starting posture. No disc needed at first if you can't isolate the stride.



I recommended kick the can/land in crush because actually kicking the can causes body feedback striding off the rear leg.