An Open Letter to Three Putt/Garubladder

[Pink Elephant]

He has a stalker *points at you*

 

[Jukeshoe]

Did no one else find it amusing he called Garu "Garubladder"?

Good eye. :hfive:

 

[racer93]

I read a blurb recently about pitchers throwing curve balls. This has to do with understability in that the same principle applies, at least to beat discs. It's called the "M____ Effect" (can't remember the name of it), but it says that the air pressure differs and causes the ball to move to the lower air pressure area and the disc's wing with the lower air pressure (R for RHBH throw) to dip in that direction.

That's what I can add.

 

[optidiscic]

my bad garublador....you may call me optidickis

as far as why I want to know...part curiousity and partly I do believe understanding what discs do and why will definetely lead to better decision-making...is it the magic bullet to success, absolutely not but I think it would help.

The problem is that every disc has so many different ingredients in different measures that understanding why a disc does what it does gets confusing

This is my belief system so far...feel free to shatter my belief system if you disagree

Glide (or lift) is related to air moving faster over the top of the disc than it does underneath or even to just larger diameter discs....(T-Bird, ROC) Flat tops have less glide as the air on top is moving closer to the speed as the underside (wolf/zone) while discs with bigger domes glide more as the air on top is moving much faster than the air underneath (spider?) Glide also is related to the weight of the disc which makes it react to gravity sooner of course. The best analogy when it comes to glide for me is to think of airplanes.....the heavy ones (180g discs)dont fly as easily as light ones(150g discs).....bi-planes rely on greater wing surface area (Tee Birds) Jets don't have as much glide (firebird)as propellor driven planes (archangel) For these reasons Firebirds tend to get their distance from intially cutting through the air and then fade hard due to lack of glide while archangels achieve their distance in the latter portions of their glidey flight.....obviously the lower glide discs do better in the wind than their glidey counterparts.

In my world glide simply keeps a disc in the air longer and thus allows more time for other disc characteristics to occur such as hi speed turn and then low speed fade....akin to throwing off a hill on a windless day...the disc can achieve its full flight characteristics as it is in the air longer....every disc eventually will fade out if given enough room.

Thats about what I think I know about glide

 

[sidewinder22]

Stability is about the the relationship of the wing tip height(weight mass) to the overall disc height. Higher wing tip(mass) = more stability. Lower wing tip(mass) = less stability. A blunt edge doesn't necessarily relate to stability especially with putters.

Beads keep discs more stable because they deflect air turbulence from going under the disc better.

Straight wings are less stable than curved wings within the same mold because the straighter wing has more mass lower. You can still have overstable discs with straight wings like the Venom because the wing tip or mass is very high.

Glide typically comes from the amount of air the disc can hold under it, so domes, larger diameter and deeper rims hold more air and glide better.

Fade and turn are generally related to the stability or weight distribution.

Rim width deals with disc speed.

 

[Lithicon]

Not true! If you are intelligent enough to understand the characteristics you will make better decisions in the field than someone who is oblivious to those differences. Most people just throw a disc they like, when it may not be the best choice. As long as you know what the disc is gonna do, that is the only key, but I think understanding why discs fly the way they do will help make good decisions.

Like Garu said, it won't help.

Your decision to throw a disc because a wing angle of X* makes it less stable, than a disc with X.XX* of wing angle for a particular anhyzer shot doesn't mean it will perform that shot any better, if you don't have technique to make it work, lol. Also, ask any pro how much they understand about disc physics and I'd say in terms of our classifications of terms we apply to them, they have a great understanding. But, in a scientific terms I'd be willing to bet that most of them don't know, and don't care.

Because, after practicing with a disc they'll get an idea of how the disc will perform in their hands. Understanding which disc perform better could make you come to a conclusion of which disc just might be better suited to make a particular shot, or be more versatile. But, everyone else can get that knowledge much easier by practice, lol. Over thinking some things lead to failure. Determining which disc to pull out because of it's profile, or wing angles, or dome really isn't any different than saying. Well, this particular shot I can make my Roc flip just enough, "BING, use a Roc." One method is just easier and the other won't have that much affect over the competition as long as they know how and why to perform a certain shot in a given condition with a particular disc without knowing the small nuances of scientific physics of flight.

All this is trumped by your physical and mental capacity to perform the shot. Having the knowledge of how to throw certain lines, how to manipulate your form. And, then ultimately in the end being able to physically perform the shot. The variables in your throw you have to over come can make or break the throw completely. The throw could make the disc work or not. Knowing you could perform the shot, you could argue that you might not know what disc to throw just because you know how to throw, and can. Well, understanding the scientific physics won't make that much easier, as I said earlier anyone can get that knowledge easier by practice.

Over all the knowledge gained by the scientific data from how or why a disc flies the way it does, it trumped by your physical ability to perform the shot. Looks good on paper, and in your head. But, until you can go out and do it, it won't make a bit of difference. Then you can explain why it done it to someone, and they'll look at you and laugh. I do fully understand the search for knowledge. I like to know how things work myself.

As far as discussing it, I wasn't saying you shouldn't. I added my opinion to the discussion.

Oh, and Nate. You made two post that didn't even pertain to the topic. You're saying I'm losing credibility. Seriously, I didn't know I ever had any? It's an internet forum, honestly I have as much as you if the person wants to believe it. Most people with common sense though can see you're an idiot.

 

[NateDiscFlip]

LITHI Cheer!

Lithi, Lithi, He's our man...if he can't explain it...no one can...especially natediscflip.

Lithi...you sound more intelligent when you're not trying to look so good, but thanks for the compliment.

by the way, by pointing out that people who understand how discs fly doesn't help their decision making and overall game....LOL...guy....that's why you bragg about throwing a putter 350....no one else cares...but you

as if trying to tell the guy who posted this thread that it is in his best to be able to throw a putter 350...or better yet...knowing how disc characteristics are of no concern....what game are you playing anyways?...here's a hint "antagonist"

You think cause you type, you can play...will someone post that this guy is as good as he can type PLEASE!! and I know I can out play you and your 350 putter drives...go work on your game son...chow

 

[Lithicon]

Just because you can't read and understand the post I make because they aren't written in idiot speak, doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. If you could read and understand I didn't say that understanding disc flight doesn't help, I said scientific physics of disc flight won't help them as much as they want to think it will. Also never said that disc characteristics weren't of concern. Again, you can't read and comprehend, not my fault.

My game is terrible lately, I won't deny that. But, my game is only a reflection of my dedication to practice, not a reflection of my knowledge of the game.

 

[optidiscic]

PLease take the flame war somewhere else...I don't want this thread going landfill or closed...

OK speed as it pertains to flightspeed is affected by a lower profile (less resistance) and weight to the outside of a disc generating more momentum and thus thrusting a disc forward. (ION and fatty rimmed drivers) A low profile fat rimmed driver is probably the fastest disc u can find. The problem is snap is required to get that fat rim moving....lesser players can't generate that snap to keep the disc moving forward...I would guess the difference between a 300 foot throw and a 500 foot throw could be that in the first 300 feet of each throw the farther throw will have far more revolutions

 

[KMaC]

in the meantime...trust the disc...don't trust me...what do I know? right!

Quoted for truth.

 

[NateDiscFlip]

PLease take the flame war somewhere else...I don't want this thread going landfill or closed...

OK speed as it pertains to flightspeed is affected by a lower profile (less resistance) and weight to the outside of a disc generating more momentum and thus thrusting a disc forward. (ION and fatty rimmed drivers) A low profile fat rimmed driver is probably the fastest disc u can find. The problem is snap is required to get that fat rim moving....lesser players can't generate that snap to keep the disc moving forward...I would guess the difference between a 300 foot throw and a 500 foot throw could be that in the first 300 feet of each throw the farther throw will have far more revolutions

Sorry opti....but as history has it...the trolls can help themselves without giving insult...I posted....made a bad post...and corrected it....then Einstein and Beavis jump...

Too bad...I thought I had some good information to share...but can't seem to avoid the egohaters...i'll keep posting my bad info...sorry...and stay away from the insignificants who think they know it all...

 

[biscoe]

The problem is snap is required to get that fat rim moving....lesser players can't generate that snap to keep the disc moving forward...I would guess the difference between a 300 foot throw and a 500 foot throw could be that in the first 300 feet of each throw the farther throw will have far more revolutions

snap is required to KEEP it moving. armspeed is required to get it moving.

 

[Lithicon]

Yes, the wider rim drivers are harder to gain snap, AND, require more snap than a smaller rimmed driver to attain the same or more distances generally speaking. That's why people throwing roughly 400' with fairway drivers and pick up a Boss, Destroyer, Groove, Katana, Nuke, don't see much of a distance increase as they can't generate more snap on the disc to get the correct flight out of it. Regardless if they can get it close to it's cruising speed.

 

[Lithicon]

Guess I could add this, as the more weight is on the outside of the disc as you mentioned it takes more snap to get it spinning the same as disc with less weight on the outside. BUT, can maintain that spin longer if enough spin is applied than the disc that have less mass on the outside. This is where speed affects the flight as the stability of the disc is less affected by the speed because of the amount of spin it takes to get the wider rim disc going, which coins the phrase speed stable. The disc with less weight on the outside can be more affected by speed and therefore become less stable faster, because as the spin slows down normally in flight, the disc will be overcome by speed.

But, spin can make the disc more or less stable longer, as the gyro effect will allow it to maintain the correct plane longer or shorter depending upon the amount of spin the disc has.

This applies to Over stable, and under stable.

As you can make a more over stable disc fade less if you're able to put enough spin on it, but it's much harder to do than keeping a less stable disc from turning.

 

[VictorB]

Angular velocity [av] (spin imparted on a disc at release) is the what keeps a disc "holding a line" - whether that be hyzer, straight, or turnover. Moment of inertia [mi] determines the force that is needed to get a disc spinning.

Directional velocity [dv] is the forward speed of a disc. Each disc requires a certain directional velocity to fly properly. If the dv:av ratio is very high, the disc will act understable. if the dv:av ratio is low, the disc will act more overstable than it really is.

Lift is the force generated by air passing faster over the flight plate when compared to the under side of the disc. The differences in air speed passing the disc cause a slight difference in air pressure - with the higher pressures being applied to the underside of the disc - creating a slight upward force that works against gravity. This is also known (somewhat incorrectly) as glide.

Stability is a rating based on the ability for a disc to keep it's center of pressure (where the lift force is applied to the disc) close to the true center of the flight plate. Overstable discs tend to have a center of pressure on the on the right side that the disc, thus the disc wants to lift it's wing on the right side (RHBH throwers). The opposite is true for understable discs, but given enough time in the air, the center of pressure will move back to the right side of the disc, causing the right wing to lift. (see JHern's thread on dgr for an illustrative reference) Stable discs tend to balance the center of pressure better than the other two categories, and therefore fly on truer lines than the other two.


I'd add more, but am a little lost for what to explain next...others have probably explained the above in a better manner than I can.

I'll add more when I have a bit more time.

 

[VictorB]

Guess I could add this, as the more weight is on the outside of the disc as you mentioned it takes more snap to get it spinning the same as disc with less weight on the outside. BUT, can maintain that spin longer if enough spin is applied than the disc that have less mass on the outside.

Yes, this is called the moment of inertia. Once you meet the inertial force requirements to get a disc to spin faster (creating the proper centrifugal force for the distribution of weight), it will try to hold the angular momentum imparted on the disc longer. Once the momentum slows though, there will be a drastic movement of the center of pressure over to the right (RHBH throwers) and generally a strong fade at the end of the flight.

 

[optidiscic]

Lets talk about that momentum of the disc:

If a RHBH drive is made with a fat rimmed driver with a lot of snap then the left side of the disc will actually have more air moving over the top of the disc due to the disc moving against the air while the right side will move the same direction with the air. This is why initially all discs tend to be less stable in their flights. The increased air movement over the top of the disc on the left side of the disc causes the left side to lift and the disc begins it's turn as the revolutions decrease the disc flattens out and eventually they slow to the point where the momentum of the left side dropping will cause the disc to fade.....this is why the fatter a rim is the harder the fade will be and this contributes to increased fade. To throw a disc straight requires matching flightspeed and spinspeed in the perfect balance. Easier to do with thinner rimmed (slower) discs.

 

[NateDiscFlip]

Guess I could add this, as the more weight is on the outside of the disc as you mentioned it takes more snap to get it spinning the same as disc with less weight on the outside. BUT, can maintain that spin longer if enough spin is applied than the disc that have less mass on the outside. This is where speed affects the flight as the stability of the disc is less affected by the speed because of the amount of spin it takes to get the wider rim disc going, which coins the phrase speed stable. The disc with less weight on the outside can be more affected by speed and therefore become less stable faster, because as the spin slows down normally in flight, the disc will be overcome by speed.

But, spin can make the disc more or less stable longer, as the gyro effect will allow it to maintain the correct plane longer or shorter depending upon the amount of spin the disc has.

This applies to Over stable, and under stable.

As you can make a more over stable disc fade less if you're able to put enough spin on it, but it's much harder to do than keeping a less stable disc from turning.

Sorry but more spin equals larger skip...unless you give it air....not sure of the point of providing the comment, since it is a shot no one is going to use

 

[Lithicon]

Angular velocity [av] (spin imparted on a disc at release) is the what keeps a disc "holding a line" - whether that be hyzer, straight, or turnover. Moment of inertia [mi] determines the force that is needed to get a disc spinning.

Directional velocity [dv] is the forward speed of a disc. Each disc requires a certain directional velocity to fly properly. If the dv:av ratio is very high, the disc will act understable. if the dv:av ratio is low, the disc will act more overstable than it really is.

Lift is the force generated by air passing faster over the flight plate when compared to the under side of the disc. The differences in air speed passing the disc cause a slight difference in air pressure - with the higher pressures being applied to the underside of the disc - creating a slight upward force that works against gravity. This is also known (somewhat incorrectly) as glide.

Stability is a rating based on the ability for a disc to keep it's center of pressure (where the lift force is applied to the disc) close to the true center of the flight plate. Overstable discs tend to have a center of pressure on the on the right side that the disc, thus the disc wants to lift it's wing on the right side (RHBH throwers). The opposite is true for understable discs, but given enough time in the air, the center of pressure will move back to the right side of the disc, causing the right wing to lift. (see JHern's thread on dgr for an illustrative reference) Stable discs tend to balance the center of pressure better than the other two categories, and therefore fly on truer lines than the other two.


I'd add more, but am a little lost for what to explain next...others have probably explained the above in a better manner than I can.

I'll add more when I have a bit more time.

The part highlighted above is essentially what I was saying in my post above.

 

[NateDiscFlip]

fly PROPERLY....this is where you are getting your explanation all funny....what designates a proper throw...besides aces? Make sense...not words...oh you must mean OAT