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“Boring” disc golf courses (particularly on coverage)

araytx

* Ace Member *
Joined
Jun 13, 2011
Messages
3,238
This question is an earnest attempt to understand the mindset and thinking. For those players/people who deem long ball golf courses (like EmporIa Country Club, The Preserve, etc.) as being "boring" because you view them as long hyzer after long hyzer after long hyzer, how do you view Swenson with its "distance roller after distance roller", or "long straight low ceiling after long straight low ceiling"?

And if it's NOT "boring" to you, please explain the difference from your perspective. I'm not here to challenge; just trying to understand. Again I'm primarily talking to people who view certain ball golf course layouts as "boring" "hyzer fests."
 
Think of it this way, the more accuracy required the more skill. That's the summary.

If the holes are long, require careful placement and a variety of shot shapes, good knowledge of your discs along with accuracy all the better. Skillful recovery shots are exciting as well. Long ball courses usually sacrifice one or more of these things. In addition if they reward players throwing a bunch of rollers , the shot most open to luck good and bad, it is less exciting.

IMO a great tournament course would have some typically ball golf holes hopefully with very little artificial OB but it wouldn't be the main type of hole or the focus of the round. I don't mind some bunkr areas.
 
Just speculation, since I haven't seen Swenson, but on an open hyzer there's not much that can go wrong. Other than, not going quite as far as wished. On a roller or low-ceiling shot, there's more chance of something bad happening, so more drama.

On the other hand, a whole lot of any one thing can be boring.
 
Just speculation, since I haven't seen Swenson, but on an open hyzer there's not much that can go wrong. Other than, not going quite as far as wished. On a roller or low-ceiling shot, there's more chance of something bad happening, so more drama.

On the other hand, a whole lot of any one thing can be boring.

this would be my argument. if it can be pissed away, it's a better course.
 
I like seeing courses that tests different shots for players, and a good way to do this is to encourage players to take uncommon lines. The goal of course design should be to test the expected skill set of the people the course is intended for. If it's designed for a beginner, it should be short and have few obstacles (so they can learn how to throw a disc). A pro should be expected to do anything that can be done with a disc, and therefore a pro course should test that a player can do anything. I dislike spike hyzer festivals (generally courses at country clubs) because of this. Emporia Country Club is better about this than most people think, but Swenson (OTB's tournament this weekend) has been great because it tests many skills a pro should be expected to have.

Specifically, people have noticed rollers are more prevalent here. I think that is due to the low ceilings and the length. There are only a few pros who can reach some of these holes via air shots, so many guys are rolling away. There are a few holes being "broken" with spike hyzers, but only by the biggest of arms. There are some holes that highly encourage a FH, and different types, such as a spike FH vs a low FH baby flex vs a FH roller. There's other stuff I like about this course too, but those are my thoughts in a nutshell.
 
Depending where you live, driving on the interstate is alright. Mostly straight driving through mostly similar terrain. Some twists and turns, great for gassing the pedal, but not especially exciting.

Taking the country roads is a completely different experience.


I prefer taking the back way when possible.
 
Repetition is boring. Everyone on the card holing out with the same score is boring. It's just watching people throw. No tension, no disappointment, no fun.
 
Repetition is boring. Everyone on the card holing out with the same score is boring. It's just watching people throw. No tension, no disappointment, no fun.

But what about what we're seeing at Swenson? Half of the holes have the majority throwing BH rollers off the tee. Is the repetition really the boring part, as you said above? Or is it the fact that it's just not hyzer shots? I question the Ryan P. who said there was "a variety of shots" at Swenson. I didn't see "variety. " Tell how it was "variety" vs "shots we don't see very often" happening over and over.
 
But what about what we're seeing at Swenson? Half of the holes have the majority throwing BH rollers off the tee. Is the repetition really the boring part, as you said above? Or is it the fact that it's just not hyzer shots? I question the Ryan P. who said there was "a variety of shots" at Swenson. I didn't see "variety. " Tell how it was "variety" vs "shots we don't see very often" happening over and over.

I made it through three holes of coverage and found something better to do with my time. Swenson is a boring course. So... I can't comment on it. What happened at the BEast and Dogwood captivated me. What goes on in this stretch of the schedule is... time to clean the garage.
 
I made it through three holes of coverage and found something better to do with my time. Swenson is a boring course. So... I can't comment on it. What happened at the BEast and Dogwood captivated me. What goes on in this stretch of the schedule is... time to clean the garage.

Looks like Portland Open is coming up soon? What kind of course do they play there? The PNW biome has some pretty good potential for watchable DG.
 
I made it through three holes of coverage and found something better to do with my time. Swenson is a boring course. So... I can't comment on it. What happened at the BEast and Dogwood captivated me. What goes on in this stretch of the schedule is... time to clean the garage.

Ok. I get it
 
I'm confused by this thread. Most of the holes at OTB were demanding, but offered a wide variety of lines. You had plenty of holes where 3 or 4 people on the card threw different lines from each other. There were many rollers, sure, but many other shots as well.

The huge advantage Swenson had over many other ball golf set ups is the prevalence of so many mature oaks. That meant that you had wider alleys with low ceilings. Off line shots were punished, but usually didn't result in the same kind of punishment that, say, firs would. You couldn't make the same kind of interesting course with other kinds of trees. Oaks rarely result in NAGS, not so for other bunker trees.

Even if we just compare a roller or air shot on, say, Emporia or Goat Hill, to Swenson, the general setup of Swenson usually meant that the shot was crossing a variety of obstacles and terrains. You didn't have a shot running down a wide open fairway being launched from what seemed to be the ball golf tee. Most of the holes were composed of multiple pieces of ball golf holes, or completely separated from them.

Then you have what was far more natural OB. Even though there isn't much of a practical difference between the Swenson ponds that had an OB line, or "ponds" created from OB lines, it's still more visceral to see a shot trying to clear water vs. trying to clear string. While there were some artificial OB lines, they mostly didn't come into play. Avoiding OB lines was not a primary source of challenge on the course, which is quite rare for DG on ball golf properties.

Take hole 10 and imagine pushing the pin back and left so the green and the bunker were more in play. That would have made a much harder hole, but probably a more arbitrary one. As it was, the hole was the easiest on the course, but good shots were rewarded, and bad shots took birdie mostly out of play. It was in harmony with the rest of the course, and forcing the green or bunker to be a major obstacle wouldn't have been.
 
The MPO players we see in the coverage from the 2nd round and on at these golf courses are just the ones most capable of avoiding the risk off the tee. Going over/under/around obstacles, managing the ground action, and/or adjusting best to the wind with a high consistency and routinely putting well from 40' and in. The top competitors tee shot selection usually switches to the most likely to result in a birdie look with the least risk of a bogie+ after a handful of rounds.

Swenson being a new course to the tour (like The Preserve last year) made for a more interesting watch as the players changed strategies each round and not everyone settled on the same 'best shot'. Certain holes felt a bit toothless with risk far enough away that only the lower level competitors would bring it in. Others had a lot of teeth with low ceiling/tunnel like tee shots preventing going over the top or were too narrow for the correct roller lines which even the top competitors struggled to get to C2 for birdie looks (only a couple ace runs). Even the shots that players could get rollers down caught some out in bad positions due to uneven ground and hitting things. The air shots brought in a risk of 2 meter penalties and a higher risk of getting stopped earlier in the fairway by hitting something. So some holes with lots of distance made a player choose between roller or air shot but the roller. Maybe some fine tuning/tree trimming is needed to open up some gaps for air shots and reduce their risk.

Most of the golf course tracks lack easily visible risks and visual diversity on the coverage compared to wooded style. Sand traps, greens, cart paths, and less steep elevation changes are surface level (from the ball golf needs) vs. higher density trees & rough bordering the fairway (tall grass/bushes/overgrowth) and true rollaway risks from hillsides for wooded ones. For the golf course penalties the player just takes it where it lies (hazard), goes to drop zone, or takes 1 meter in from the OB line with a penalty stroke. For the wooded ones a player has a chance to scramble from the rough most times (which can affect pace of play more than is desirable) without a penalty. So the artificial and quick nature of the penalties reduces their time on screen (just a flash of the OB visual on screen usually) and isn't as entertaining as seeing a player scramble to save their score.

Italicized the stuff that made Swenson a bit more entertaining
Bolded some of the stuff that makes golf course style courses 'boring' to me
 
I'm confused by this thread. Most of the holes at OTB were demanding, but offered a wide variety of lines. You had plenty of holes where 3 or 4 people on the card threw different lines from each other. There were many rollers, sure, but many other shots as well.

The huge advantage Swenson had over many other ball golf set ups is the prevalence of so many mature oaks. That meant that you had wider alleys with low ceilings. Off line shots were punished, but usually didn't result in the same kind of punishment that, say, firs would. You couldn't make the same kind of interesting course with other kinds of trees. Oaks rarely result in NAGS, not so for other bunker trees.

Even if we just compare a roller or air shot on, say, Emporia or Goat Hill, to Swenson, the general setup of Swenson usually meant that the shot was crossing a variety of obstacles and terrains. You didn't have a shot running down a wide open fairway being launched from what seemed to be the ball golf tee. Most of the holes were composed of multiple pieces of ball golf holes, or completely separated from them.

Then you have what was far more natural OB. Even though there isn't much of a practical difference between the Swenson ponds that had an OB line, or "ponds" created from OB lines, it's still more visceral to see a shot trying to clear water vs. trying to clear string. While there were some artificial OB lines, they mostly didn't come into play. Avoiding OB lines was not a primary source of challenge on the course, which is quite rare for DG on ball golf properties.

Take hole 10 and imagine pushing the pin back and left so the green and the bunker were more in play. That would have made a much harder hole, but probably a more arbitrary one. As it was, the hole was the easiest on the course, but good shots were rewarded, and bad shots took birdie mostly out of play. It was in harmony with the rest of the course, and forcing the green or bunker to be a major obstacle wouldn't have been.

No need to be confused. I get that some people like chocolate ice cream and some prefer other flavors. If it's just you like it, that's enough that need be said.

My thought/question was to those who see "hyzer after hyzer" ball courses "boring" (I assume because they're seeing the same throw again and again), and asking them to clarify the difference between that and why "roller after roller" or "low ceiling straight after low ceiling straight" is NOT boring in their mind. I saw only a couple holes where player really chose different throws off the tee — not a regular occurrence. Probably saw more rollers this weekend than the entire tour each of the last few years. Is it newness to you? ... that makes it more "interesting"? If so, when two years from now every pro has settled on the best tee throw, will it become more "boring"? And did you mean a "prettier" view when you said "visceral." I don't know if I've ever heard that term in that context.
 
The MPO players we see in the coverage from the 2nd round and on at these golf courses are just the ones most capable of avoiding the risk off the tee. Going over/under/around obstacles, managing the ground action, and/or adjusting best to the wind with a high consistency and routinely putting well from 40' and in. The top competitors tee shot selection usually switches to the most likely to result in a birdie look with the least risk of a bogie+ after a handful of rounds.

Swenson being a new course to the tour (like The Preserve last year) made for a more interesting watch as the players changed strategies each round and not everyone settled on the same 'best shot'. Certain holes felt a bit toothless with risk far enough away that only the lower level competitors would bring it in. Others had a lot of teeth with low ceiling/tunnel like tee shots preventing going over the top or were too narrow for the correct roller lines which even the top competitors struggled to get to C2 for birdie looks (only a couple ace runs). Even the shots that players could get rollers down caught some out in bad positions due to uneven ground and hitting things. The air shots brought in a risk of 2 meter penalties and a higher risk of getting stopped earlier in the fairway by hitting something. So some holes with lots of distance made a player choose between roller or air shot but the roller. Maybe some fine tuning/tree trimming is needed to open up some gaps for air shots and reduce their risk.

Most of the golf course tracks lack easily visible risks and visual diversity on the coverage compared to wooded style. Sand traps, greens, cart paths, and less steep elevation changes are surface level (from the ball golf needs) vs. higher density trees & rough bordering the fairway (tall grass/bushes/overgrowth) and true rollaway risks from hillsides for wooded ones. For the golf course penalties the player just takes it where it lies (hazard), goes to drop zone, or takes 1 meter in from the OB line with a penalty stroke. For the wooded ones a player has a chance to scramble from the rough most times (which can affect pace of play more than is desirable) without a penalty. So the artificial and quick nature of the penalties reduces their time on screen (just a flash of the OB visual on screen usually) and isn't as entertaining as seeing a player scramble to save their score.

Italicized the stuff that made Swenson a bit more entertaining
Bolded some of the stuff that makes golf course style courses 'boring' to me


So looking at your italicized comments what made Swenson more interesting were:
1– prevalence of low ceiling shots and preventing over the top throws
2– the risk that a roller throw could end up in bad positions
3– design where top competitors struggled to get c2 birdie looks
4– 2 meter penalty risk on air shots

Did I get that right? If so, one thing so find interesting. Emporia Country Club has seen few and far between double digit under par rounds, even from the best; Swenson yielded multiple such rounds to players with various ratings. Apparently there were way more birdie looks at Swenson.
 
I haven't watched all the coverage yet, but after getting through round 1 I liked that Swenson had multiple holes where even the commentators were pointing out that people took 3-4 different types of throws to get to the same result, that's fun to watch in my opinion. Maybe later rounds get more boring but it seemed like this course forced players to execute different shots, Eagle throwing backhand anny, forehand hyzer, forehand flex, backhand hyzer and rollers off the tee in the same round was about as much variety in tee shots as I can remember him throwing in recent events, usually he finds a way to go hyzer bh or hyzer fh off every tee.
Compared to other ball golf courses where a particular shot shape might be the same as the shot required at Swenson I appreciated that the big trees made it much easier to see if the shot was working out or not whereas somewhere like Emporia you have to wait till it hits the ground and the coverage tells you if it was OB or not. Seemed like the course did a decent job of playing through trees sort of like woods golf, but was easier to film and share with spectators due to not being totally buried in the woods.
 
So looking at your italicized comments what made Swenson more interesting were:
1– prevalence of low ceiling shots and preventing over the top throws
2– the risk that a roller throw could end up in bad positions
3– design where top competitors struggled to get c2 birdie looks
4– 2 meter penalty risk on air shots

Did I get that right? If so, one thing so find interesting. Emporia Country Club has seen few and far between double digit under par rounds, even from the best; Swenson yielded multiple such rounds to players with various ratings. Apparently there were way more birdie looks at Swenson.

Less punitive OBs and wide fairways at Swenson vs. ECC so we saw players off the main fairway but not necessarily out of position to approach and get birdies. ECC has very defined fairways lined with OB so you'll have conservative play leading to pars and more aggressive play getting either birdie (penalty free) or bogie (with the OB penalty). Media coverage seemed to suffer a bit when players were scattered around the fairway

ECC also seems a bit more open to the wind which could factor in the scoring a bit more than what we saw at Swenson (relatively calm this weekend apart from Friday in the afternoon). 'Wind' as a risk is also not really visible in coverage and can be inconsistent at different levels of tournament play. We saw extremely low scoring with unusually calm conditions during The Preserve in '20 and lower than expected at Jones Gold in '21.
 
Milo McIver and Konopiste are as close to a ball golf courses as I enjoy watching the top players on. There were many times Sunday the commentators were asking Jamie Thomas for confirmation as to where on the fairway a discs ended up and if there was a line from there. If they were confused due to the wide open spray the disc could end up with no penalties, the coverage is going to have some difficulties portraying the play of the hole in a visually compelling manner. Maybe if the sport ever got to the point where a 20' temporary tower could go on certain over the top holes it'd make the filming of the drives a little less janky since you could follow all the way to the tree that the disc is trying to crash through. I agree the course was challenging. The leaderboards played out almost exactly by player rating. More technical courses will see the same 1030-1050 players at the top, but seem to cause a lot of problems for the 1010-1020's players and 990-1010 players sometimes play way above their rating because they aren't penalized for not having top tier absolute max distance shots and can make up ground approaching and putting. That may create a few interesting storylines on the 2nd or 3rd card. So it's more than it just being a hyzer fest like Fountain Hills that contributes to coverage being boring. Sundays coverage was "patented" boring coverage except for Calvin and Catrina's attempts to upset. Luckily there weren't backup pontifications to deal with so it kept flowing but I made sure to do some cleaning, laundry and dishes while it played in the background.
 
The sure-fire way to make a course much more interesting to watch on video is to play it before watching the video.

Every course is fun to watch when you can yell "That's where my throw landed, too!"* after watching Paul's drive.

If video can get to the point where the viewer can really get a sense of knowing exactly where the camera is and what is around the thrower, all courses will be more interesting to watch.





*On my third drive.
 
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