JR
* Ace Member *
Initial impressions based on mostly field work this week.
Quest Defender 169 80/20 I think this is what the new plastic is. Definitely not as bad as SRP this plastic is durable if first impressions and touching the disc are correct. The top dimples are slippery to hold but it's probably only a problem for new players or in cold/wet weather. There's the rub. At this weight it's more suited to 30' or less crowd as a straight then hard hook disc. At 400' one needs a lot of initial hyzer and wrist roll under and a fairly high apex or it'll turn and burn. A very touchy disc at high speeds. Close to Vision and monarch in HSS and LSS is probably something like original Teerex. Not at all my cup of tea. Not that fast I'd say. Rim isn't wide for easier grip. Relatively not fast although quite fast still because light discs in other fast molds are faster.
Timberwolf 169. Had to bring up a positive experience to keep my spirits up for finishing this write...
More glide and less fade than Star Eagle 166 without flashing. Longer but gets bounced more by winds by a little and doesn't flex as easily. A very long control driver. On a golf s-curve I've gotten it to 360' but that was when I was tired. No rest this week and I got these discs on the second day of training and training 4 days in a row ain't helping. Longest line drive slid on the ground to about the same distance. So far in the bag. With fall winds picking up I may have to use SEX until winds die down. To me these discs are close enough so that one could use Timberwolf for slight uphills to do what SEX does or interchangeably in calm weather. That's a high praise indeed.
Helios 159 EGR and 174 EGR gummy(didn't order a gummy). Broke down in wait of FGR and got these for field practice. 159 definitely won't take abuse and hits well. Slight burring from field work already. No tolerance for OAT, wrist roll over and high speed with low spin. With 400' power both will flip hard even with 12' apexes and 20 degrees of initial hyzer. It's been somewhat windy... When I concentrate on a fully clean release and raise the apex, add hyzer or wrist roll I can flip these to flat but the margin of error isn't large. Fliping over when not intending is easy. I can flip the 174 from stand still but it won't need as much initial hyzer and flexes back. 159 requires a lot of hyzer from stand still. Standing still I don't need a lot of weight shift for 300'. Not even full power from my arm. That's great for second shots and short drives when one is tired and to those that are most accurate at 80 % power.
For max D work I haven't gotten to terms with these yet. For my form (too little spin I suspect from too weak fingers to allow a steely stop and holding on long enough for the full benefits of wrist extension) they're too understable at high speeds and the window in acceptable hyzer angle and ease of flipping over too much are so far too tight for me. Haven't learned these properly so it's at least partly the thrower not the disc. What irks me is that they are too LSS IMO for long line drives. While not flexing back well enough from hyzer flip until they've lost too much speed to go far. The glide is good but not that great to compensate for the lack of speed I'm seeing after high hyzer flipped throws. Or to keep the disc airborne for absolutely top rate line drive D. I try to not feel disappointed because I need to learn to throw these better but there's no margin of error for a spin deficient thrower like me for max D work on any line. Golf or raw D. Haven't tried super high max D lines because the plastic won't stand the impacts. I know this from messed up high throws. Wait and see situation for me. FGR is supposed to be more high speed stable.
I think Helios EGR is like QK -meant to go reasonably far for a lot of power ranges including low power throwers.
QK2 It's black... It's slippery with two finger grip but not a problem with 4 fingers. Finally the plastic seems durable enough. Not as durable as CFR Champion at similar prices but around Star at least the softer kinds. It dives down in a steep angle after hyzer flipping with high apexes. Meaning that at 400' spin deficient power low line drives need a lot of initial hyzer or wrist roll under. Same thing as with Helios needs learning. Faster so it gets D with less than perfect throws. Both discs need room to work if not line driven which is easier with the QK2. So far not the best distance but with learning it may change. Good for off days because it does get quite far if not full distance with limited power. Jury's out...
FLX Predator pink 174. LOST!!! Argh! Not the stupid overstable kind. In flight minimally less stable or equally stable to my used Z. Does stop much better on grass and fake lawn turf. It's a full Pred make no mistakes. Just for those shots that you don't wanna skip. A great compliment to the skipping Pred as a nice option needing Pred flight not taking the chance of skipping out of the fairway.
ESP 169 Flash. Red poppy top. WOWZA!!! I need to get a lighter one for even more D. And I do get major D with untouched dsic too. It just likes more than 400' of power. Meaning I threw it less and less with each day when I got more tired. The first day I used it (second training day in a row) I got some of my farthest throws with it with shuffle steps. HSS enough for low line drives that are among the longest ones I've seen. Where this disc truly shines is on high gliding max D lines. The more power you have to more this disc rewards in relation to most discs. A truly top rate max D disc -with great controllability. Definitely in the bag!!! Tuning to slightly less stable at some point if not leaving that for a lighter disc... :-D Definitely will get a light one for even more D I believe.
Chalky red 171 Wizard. Putter not a driver on rocky courses. Just nasty wear on leading edge. Worse wear after one round than my Superglow for hundreds to around a thousand drives. Not for those that seek soft flexy flight plate. About as soft new than my Superglow is beaten. Otherwise you know what you get with a Wizard. Nice grip for putting without losing stability and predictability by going the SS or SSS route. Great for those that like to putt with Wizards. Probably the best balance for those seeking good grip wanting to keep relative firmness.
159 Champ Monarch. Better than Defender not much more to write about. Not different from 175 to me. Enough anyway. I'm just not that comfortable yet with discs this fast(wanting to put full arm speed on them) and that HS understable with too much LS overstability to rob distance. Just not long enough for the kind of hassle with flipping over or overall without other considerations. Although predictably vs Sidewinder. Another disc for big snap players or <300' or both people. Competes directly with Vision. The only advantage I see is durability over EGR Helios. Not in the bag. Don't see it making it even with more practice. If I bend my hurt back I expect top notch D out of the disc. Not happening here.
148 Star Eagle virgin condition. Too few throws to say much of anything. Didn't throw it a lot because I think I know what I got from throwing a heavier Eagle X. Still longer than Star TB weight for weight. Less HSS than 166 SEX. Didn't notice a difference in LSS compared to 166 SEX with flashing removed. If the flashing is removed I suspect this is close to TB in not flexing back from annies and fading very little to not at all at lesser distance than the heavier Eagle. I think that I'll let this disc wear naturally. A backup, for calm conditions and uphills on days that I'm tired. A fully working SEX just requires more touch than heavier ones.
Long but can't yet compare to 166 without flashing. Didn't memorize with the few throws I made. Definitely easier to get far with less power. Tremendous for low power players. Can't recommend it enough for them. If it's still too much for you it's probably around the corner to becoming best loved driver and a DX 150 might be it already.
DX 146 Wraith for driving field fun and open grassy long holes. More hyzer than a normal Wraith and this can be driven with on low line drives. It's back breaking angle without wrist rol under at 400' of power but it's worth it. Long, long, long on medium high hyzer flips.
DX 150 Destroyer is even better than Wraith so can't wait for Excalibers Seen one thrown. Won't tell who in case it's not supposed to be out. Don't wanna give trouble to people. Back to the real deal. What Wraith 150 lacks in penetration Destroyer has got it. If you've got stuck to 380' with regular discs this gets you closer to or beyond 400'. Not needing to be an acrobat to get needed initial hyzer angle Just do it. You know you want it.
The only disc I've seen compete with Destroyer in line drives or max D lines is ESP Flash 169. Both are tremendous distance drivers. Not with bad control when new. Of course Flash last a lot longer and can be used where this baby dies quickly. To early to call definitely but I think that this is better for average D than Flash and may also get more absolute D on the best of rips. I think that I got more close to max absolute D throws with the Flash but it's also easier to get shorter throws with it for greater variance. For me this baby has got the absolute best average distance with least variation between throws. Just so easy and graceful in flight. I'm in love!!! Luckily ESP Flash is so close that together they can be used regularly for a boost in D in most/every situations.
167 Star 12x Wraith. Whoo wee!!! Less back breaking hyzer needed than 150 Wraith. And close to as long with durability. Definitely in the bag until I get enough experience with it and Flash ESP on courses to see if I can get by with only one. Getting one now isn't a bad idea unless you've already got a light ESP Flash. Top rated disc. I view 12x Star Wraiths as Wraith model 2. They're longer and more HSS than original Wraiths by just about the correct amount. Just love 'em.
Quest Defender 169 80/20 I think this is what the new plastic is. Definitely not as bad as SRP this plastic is durable if first impressions and touching the disc are correct. The top dimples are slippery to hold but it's probably only a problem for new players or in cold/wet weather. There's the rub. At this weight it's more suited to 30' or less crowd as a straight then hard hook disc. At 400' one needs a lot of initial hyzer and wrist roll under and a fairly high apex or it'll turn and burn. A very touchy disc at high speeds. Close to Vision and monarch in HSS and LSS is probably something like original Teerex. Not at all my cup of tea. Not that fast I'd say. Rim isn't wide for easier grip. Relatively not fast although quite fast still because light discs in other fast molds are faster.
Timberwolf 169. Had to bring up a positive experience to keep my spirits up for finishing this write...
More glide and less fade than Star Eagle 166 without flashing. Longer but gets bounced more by winds by a little and doesn't flex as easily. A very long control driver. On a golf s-curve I've gotten it to 360' but that was when I was tired. No rest this week and I got these discs on the second day of training and training 4 days in a row ain't helping. Longest line drive slid on the ground to about the same distance. So far in the bag. With fall winds picking up I may have to use SEX until winds die down. To me these discs are close enough so that one could use Timberwolf for slight uphills to do what SEX does or interchangeably in calm weather. That's a high praise indeed.Helios 159 EGR and 174 EGR gummy(didn't order a gummy). Broke down in wait of FGR and got these for field practice. 159 definitely won't take abuse and hits well. Slight burring from field work already. No tolerance for OAT, wrist roll over and high speed with low spin. With 400' power both will flip hard even with 12' apexes and 20 degrees of initial hyzer. It's been somewhat windy... When I concentrate on a fully clean release and raise the apex, add hyzer or wrist roll I can flip these to flat but the margin of error isn't large. Fliping over when not intending is easy. I can flip the 174 from stand still but it won't need as much initial hyzer and flexes back. 159 requires a lot of hyzer from stand still. Standing still I don't need a lot of weight shift for 300'. Not even full power from my arm. That's great for second shots and short drives when one is tired and to those that are most accurate at 80 % power.
For max D work I haven't gotten to terms with these yet. For my form (too little spin I suspect from too weak fingers to allow a steely stop and holding on long enough for the full benefits of wrist extension) they're too understable at high speeds and the window in acceptable hyzer angle and ease of flipping over too much are so far too tight for me. Haven't learned these properly so it's at least partly the thrower not the disc. What irks me is that they are too LSS IMO for long line drives. While not flexing back well enough from hyzer flip until they've lost too much speed to go far. The glide is good but not that great to compensate for the lack of speed I'm seeing after high hyzer flipped throws. Or to keep the disc airborne for absolutely top rate line drive D. I try to not feel disappointed because I need to learn to throw these better but there's no margin of error for a spin deficient thrower like me for max D work on any line. Golf or raw D. Haven't tried super high max D lines because the plastic won't stand the impacts. I know this from messed up high throws. Wait and see situation for me. FGR is supposed to be more high speed stable.
I think Helios EGR is like QK -meant to go reasonably far for a lot of power ranges including low power throwers.
QK2 It's black... It's slippery with two finger grip but not a problem with 4 fingers. Finally the plastic seems durable enough. Not as durable as CFR Champion at similar prices but around Star at least the softer kinds. It dives down in a steep angle after hyzer flipping with high apexes. Meaning that at 400' spin deficient power low line drives need a lot of initial hyzer or wrist roll under. Same thing as with Helios needs learning. Faster so it gets D with less than perfect throws. Both discs need room to work if not line driven which is easier with the QK2. So far not the best distance but with learning it may change. Good for off days because it does get quite far if not full distance with limited power. Jury's out...
FLX Predator pink 174. LOST!!! Argh! Not the stupid overstable kind. In flight minimally less stable or equally stable to my used Z. Does stop much better on grass and fake lawn turf. It's a full Pred make no mistakes. Just for those shots that you don't wanna skip. A great compliment to the skipping Pred as a nice option needing Pred flight not taking the chance of skipping out of the fairway.
ESP 169 Flash. Red poppy top. WOWZA!!! I need to get a lighter one for even more D. And I do get major D with untouched dsic too. It just likes more than 400' of power. Meaning I threw it less and less with each day when I got more tired. The first day I used it (second training day in a row) I got some of my farthest throws with it with shuffle steps. HSS enough for low line drives that are among the longest ones I've seen. Where this disc truly shines is on high gliding max D lines. The more power you have to more this disc rewards in relation to most discs. A truly top rate max D disc -with great controllability. Definitely in the bag!!! Tuning to slightly less stable at some point if not leaving that for a lighter disc... :-D Definitely will get a light one for even more D I believe.
Chalky red 171 Wizard. Putter not a driver on rocky courses. Just nasty wear on leading edge. Worse wear after one round than my Superglow for hundreds to around a thousand drives. Not for those that seek soft flexy flight plate. About as soft new than my Superglow is beaten. Otherwise you know what you get with a Wizard. Nice grip for putting without losing stability and predictability by going the SS or SSS route. Great for those that like to putt with Wizards. Probably the best balance for those seeking good grip wanting to keep relative firmness.
159 Champ Monarch. Better than Defender not much more to write about. Not different from 175 to me. Enough anyway. I'm just not that comfortable yet with discs this fast(wanting to put full arm speed on them) and that HS understable with too much LS overstability to rob distance. Just not long enough for the kind of hassle with flipping over or overall without other considerations. Although predictably vs Sidewinder. Another disc for big snap players or <300' or both people. Competes directly with Vision. The only advantage I see is durability over EGR Helios. Not in the bag. Don't see it making it even with more practice. If I bend my hurt back I expect top notch D out of the disc. Not happening here.
148 Star Eagle virgin condition. Too few throws to say much of anything. Didn't throw it a lot because I think I know what I got from throwing a heavier Eagle X. Still longer than Star TB weight for weight. Less HSS than 166 SEX. Didn't notice a difference in LSS compared to 166 SEX with flashing removed. If the flashing is removed I suspect this is close to TB in not flexing back from annies and fading very little to not at all at lesser distance than the heavier Eagle. I think that I'll let this disc wear naturally. A backup, for calm conditions and uphills on days that I'm tired. A fully working SEX just requires more touch than heavier ones.
Long but can't yet compare to 166 without flashing. Didn't memorize with the few throws I made. Definitely easier to get far with less power. Tremendous for low power players. Can't recommend it enough for them. If it's still too much for you it's probably around the corner to becoming best loved driver and a DX 150 might be it already.
DX 146 Wraith for driving field fun and open grassy long holes. More hyzer than a normal Wraith and this can be driven with on low line drives. It's back breaking angle without wrist rol under at 400' of power but it's worth it. Long, long, long on medium high hyzer flips.
DX 150 Destroyer is even better than Wraith so can't wait for Excalibers
Seen one thrown. Won't tell who in case it's not supposed to be out. Don't wanna give trouble to people. Back to the real deal. What Wraith 150 lacks in penetration Destroyer has got it. If you've got stuck to 380' with regular discs this gets you closer to or beyond 400'. Not needing to be an acrobat to get needed initial hyzer angle Just do it. You know you want it. The only disc I've seen compete with Destroyer in line drives or max D lines is ESP Flash 169. Both are tremendous distance drivers. Not with bad control when new. Of course Flash last a lot longer and can be used where this baby dies quickly. To early to call definitely but I think that this is better for average D than Flash and may also get more absolute D on the best of rips. I think that I got more close to max absolute D throws with the Flash but it's also easier to get shorter throws with it for greater variance. For me this baby has got the absolute best average distance with least variation between throws. Just so easy and graceful in flight. I'm in love!!! Luckily ESP Flash is so close that together they can be used regularly for a boost in D in most/every situations.
167 Star 12x Wraith. Whoo wee!!! Less back breaking hyzer needed than 150 Wraith. And close to as long with durability. Definitely in the bag until I get enough experience with it and Flash ESP on courses to see if I can get by with only one. Getting one now isn't a bad idea unless you've already got a light ESP Flash. Top rated disc. I view 12x Star Wraiths as Wraith model 2. They're longer and more HSS than original Wraiths by just about the correct amount. Just love 'em.
