@iDiscGolf
* Ace Member *
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Very good. Thank you
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2016 Pro Worlds
- Thread starter jvphobic
- Start date
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
I think what E Mc is pretty clear on the rule and interpretation. "If you read the book, it is clear, and if you don't, it's your fault." He also pointed out that it's on the player to read and know the book.
I keep reading that it isn't clear, but "Must come to rest on the island to proceed to play from island," is pretty darned clear.
I keep reading about playing from the green. I don't know the pertinence of that? It isn't in the rule book (well, long grass OB is, but that is defined in the rule book). If you are OB after the tee, then go to last place IB, with the following definition, you can't play from the island till you land there.
The fact that more than one, a bunch lets say, played it wrong isn't a testament to lack of clarity of the rules, it's a testament to not taking the rule book seriously enough, having it with you, and checking the wording.
People played it the way such things usually are played not because they didn't understand the rules. That is, the place your disc last passed over legal territory. If you assume that it is the norm, and that's the rule, and you do it wrong, you blew it. When I play a tournament, I'm the sloppy one. But on every card I've ever played on, on every hole where there is a comment on OB, the card reads the caddy book to make sure we know. I learned that early on, the first time I threw OB because I hadn't read the caddy book.
I will grant the point that if a spotter tells me it's okay, I'm gonna be confused, lets say pissed, if it costs me. But if I've read the caddy book, I'm gonna be confused and ask.
I keep reading that it isn't clear, but "Must come to rest on the island to proceed to play from island," is pretty darned clear.
I keep reading about playing from the green. I don't know the pertinence of that? It isn't in the rule book (well, long grass OB is, but that is defined in the rule book). If you are OB after the tee, then go to last place IB, with the following definition, you can't play from the island till you land there.
The fact that more than one, a bunch lets say, played it wrong isn't a testament to lack of clarity of the rules, it's a testament to not taking the rule book seriously enough, having it with you, and checking the wording.
People played it the way such things usually are played not because they didn't understand the rules. That is, the place your disc last passed over legal territory. If you assume that it is the norm, and that's the rule, and you do it wrong, you blew it. When I play a tournament, I'm the sloppy one. But on every card I've ever played on, on every hole where there is a comment on OB, the card reads the caddy book to make sure we know. I learned that early on, the first time I threw OB because I hadn't read the caddy book.
I will grant the point that if a spotter tells me it's okay, I'm gonna be confused, lets say pissed, if it costs me. But if I've read the caddy book, I'm gonna be confused and ask.
corin_brown
Eagle Member
I get the sense that the TD's (EMac & Doug) are frustrated by this situation and are feeling indignant. And it cracks me up.
On Smashboxx last night, after congratulating DD for providing the caddybook on the World's smartphone App, EMac went on about how much time and energy he and Doug spent writing the rules. Then, after stating that the rules were perfectly written and "obvious," he went on to scold players for either not reading the caddybook or not even having the caddybook with them. The implication is that McBeth played hole 7 incorrectly because he brazenly refused to consult the unimpeachable World's caddybook. Btw, I haven't seen or heard McBeth say that he misplayed hole 7 because he didn't read the rules.
EMac refused to entertain the possibility that any player, in good faith, could have read the rules and then could have misinterpreted the writer's intended meaning or could have become confused by the rules, as they were written. It sounded a little smug, defensive, tone deaf and resentful, but that's understandable - this is a pretty big cockup and they're catching a lot of unwanted heat.
Did McBeth say that he didn't read the rules? If he hasn't stated that, then don't imply that he messed up by not reading the rules, or not even carrying the caddybook at all.
The TD assessed the penalty. Their decision is final. Everyone accepts that.
But the hole 7 rules are written poorly. Otherwise Doug wouldn't have emailed the players. I also found it interesting that the letter didn't seek to clarify the rules on hole 7. To clarify the rules, in the letter, would have required acknowledgment that the rules were poorly written to begin with. It's almost like the letter was written in manner that would admit zero liability, as if they were afraid of being sued. That might be the funniest aspect of this whole thing.
Instead, the thrust of the letter was to remind players who were stupid enough to play the hole incorrectly, to report themselves so their score could be docked. And that if they did so, they'd be lucky enough to be considered honest players by the TD's.
For the life of me, I can't figure out why the TD's wouldn't have the DD attorney(s) just draft the rules themselves. Give the job of writing rules to professionals who have advanced training and licenses in writing rules clearly, so that the rules state what is intended and so that everyone can understand them clearly.
On Smashboxx last night, after congratulating DD for providing the caddybook on the World's smartphone App, EMac went on about how much time and energy he and Doug spent writing the rules. Then, after stating that the rules were perfectly written and "obvious," he went on to scold players for either not reading the caddybook or not even having the caddybook with them. The implication is that McBeth played hole 7 incorrectly because he brazenly refused to consult the unimpeachable World's caddybook. Btw, I haven't seen or heard McBeth say that he misplayed hole 7 because he didn't read the rules.
EMac refused to entertain the possibility that any player, in good faith, could have read the rules and then could have misinterpreted the writer's intended meaning or could have become confused by the rules, as they were written. It sounded a little smug, defensive, tone deaf and resentful, but that's understandable - this is a pretty big cockup and they're catching a lot of unwanted heat.
Did McBeth say that he didn't read the rules? If he hasn't stated that, then don't imply that he messed up by not reading the rules, or not even carrying the caddybook at all.
The TD assessed the penalty. Their decision is final. Everyone accepts that.
But the hole 7 rules are written poorly. Otherwise Doug wouldn't have emailed the players. I also found it interesting that the letter didn't seek to clarify the rules on hole 7. To clarify the rules, in the letter, would have required acknowledgment that the rules were poorly written to begin with. It's almost like the letter was written in manner that would admit zero liability, as if they were afraid of being sued. That might be the funniest aspect of this whole thing.
Instead, the thrust of the letter was to remind players who were stupid enough to play the hole incorrectly, to report themselves so their score could be docked. And that if they did so, they'd be lucky enough to be considered honest players by the TD's.
For the life of me, I can't figure out why the TD's wouldn't have the DD attorney(s) just draft the rules themselves. Give the job of writing rules to professionals who have advanced training and licenses in writing rules clearly, so that the rules state what is intended and so that everyone can understand them clearly.
JasonM163
Bogey Member
EMac always has something to say. I feel like he doesnt like mcbeth or something. Hes mad he never wins anything
corin_brown
Eagle Member
Sounds complex. Whatever, I trust you guys. Good luck!
You have a lot of assumptions. You can't say in one sentence "All subsequent throws..." which means every throw for the rest of that hole. Then say something about the DZ. It's impossible to to not break one of those rules. Throw from where it went OB or throw from DZ. If you throw from where it went out you break the second rule, if you throw from DZ you break the first rule.
Should have said, all subsequent throws that don't cross the OB of the island you throw from where it went out. If it crosses the OB on the island you take your shot from the DZ. Island it denoted by orange flags to let players know you now changed up during the hole.
@iDiscGolf
* Ace Member *
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What he said was black and white rules. There was no emotions too it.
With all the talk about it, what was he supposed to say?
And, he IS right.
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yeah cuz attorneys always write things soo clearly
@iDiscGolf
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Correction
Date: 06-Aug to 13-Aug-2016
Location: Emporia, KS, United States
Tournament Director: Doug Bjerkaas
Asst. Tournament Director: Jeremy Rusco
Website: www.pdga.com/2016proworlds
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
But you're making the same kind of assumption you're accusing others of making, that the clarification came because the rule wasn't clear, as opposed to the notion that the clarification came because people played the hole incorrectly. Just because they played it incorrectly doesn't mean the writing wasn't clear enough, it could be an indication that they didn't read the rule and played it the way such things are typically played.
A question, why do posters think they added the final sentence: Once safely on the island, regular OB rules apply.? That is an indicator that something else is going on. If you read that sentence and then play by the "normal" OB/IB rules you're kind of asking for it.
corin_brown
Eagle Member
Yeah, my bad. I just assumed because EMac said that he wrote the rules in the caddybook that he was also a TD.
I'll go ahead and strip him of his TD handle. Let's call him head rule writer. Is that ok?
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
No one should be surprised that EMac and Doug are annoyed. Even if they are wrong, and I don't think they are, they are getting tarred and feathered because people either didn't read the rule book (and assumed the OB/IB rule on the hole was standard) or don't understand the two sentences: Must come to rest on island to proceed to play from island. And: Once safely on island, regular OB rules apply.
bwgort
Birdie Member
Does anyone know what the rulebook said on this hole during the GBO earlier this year?
And you, along with them, completely ignore "All subsequent shots...". The world "All" should not have been used. They should have said "All subsequent shots that go OB EXCEPT those that go OB on the island...".
Flick Maniac
* Ace Member *
If there is evidence that he consulted the book and THEN continued to misplay then I concur. And he is an idiot.
corin_brown
Eagle Member
yeah cuz attorneys always write things soo clearly
Lol. Sometimes. Usually attorneys write vaguely because that's what the job requires - vague writing. Think of the attorneys who work for cellular providers, who write smart phone contracts - the more vague, the better. It's their job.
But if the job requires clear writing, like the writing of disc golf rules, you want a person trained as a writer and a reader to sign off on the writing.
The PDGA rule book is clearly written and easy to understand. I'd be shocked if PDGA attorneys didn't proofread the drafts or even write the entire thing.
I guarantee that if DD's attorneys spent even one hour looking at EMac's and Doug's work for the World's rules, no one would be beefing about them now.
At the very least, they def wouldn't have left any punctuation outside the parentheses in the hole 7 rule. (Or even used parentheses at all)...
discgolfer25
Birdie Member
I think that artificial OBs and islands are stupid. Play a course in which you don't have to be a frieken' rules expert to understand all of the stupid made up OBs because you have pros playing on a course that is way too easy for them. I like playing tournaments in which the ground rules are simple, in water, on the road or over the fence is OB, that's all.
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@iDiscGolf
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Get over it, Corbin.
SonicGuy
Banned
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DD's attorneys? PDGA Attorneys? I seriously doubt that either DD or the PDGA maintain full time general counsel. I also highly doubt that they would hire counsel to look over a freaking niche sport rulebook. You want to pay $1,000 for the rules of a single event?
I think you would be shocked at the low level of proofreading abilities by most attorneys.
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