2016 Pro Worlds

[bneely]

The bolded part is really poorly phrased. Paul's second shot in round one crossed the island and went OB out the back. So he played last place in bounds, which is what the second sentence tells you to do. However, the third sentence tells you something completely different. This is a total cluster. I wish this would have been caught sooner, and I hope it doesn't end up costing paul 2 strokes, as it seems like had an honest interpretation of the caddy book.

Yeah, you're right - typically with island holes there's a defined drop zone, and in this case the wording was quite confusing indeed.

 

[JC17393]

Looking at the caddy book, it says: "Must come to rest on island to proceed to play from island."

So he was supposed to play his OB drop from the last place it was inbounds on the regular fairway portion of the hole, but instead he dropped a standard meter in on the island (just watched the video and that's how it went down). This allowed him to save a par 4 during his round, which he certainly wouldn't have scored if he had to drop from back in the fairway.

I'm sure Chuck or someone else will confirm the appropriate penalty, but it'll only deepen the hole if he wants to come back and catch Ricky at this point.

The penalty is 2 throws (803.03 Misplay).

 

[Cgkdisc]

I'm not clear on if this is to be played as a "Throw & Distance" penalty (that we've tried to avoid this year) or the non-standard scenario where the player at least advances to the edge of the inbounds area they just threw from to make their next throw?

 

[SD86]

Per the various commentaries, McBeth realized he might have done wrong after he saw someone else today play an OB shot correctly. So while the caddy book may be poorly worded, the correct procedure was known. So we'll see what the TD rules, but I suspect McBeth has a couple strokes to make up...

 

[Pbmercil]

So while the caddy book may be poorly worded, the correct procedure was known. So we'll see what the TD rules...

Uh... No? Because between Paul himself, the spotters, his cardmates and everyone following the group not one person knew he was misplaying. So obviously it wasn't known to everyone. And it's pretty easy to see why.

It's not just the caddy book is "poorly worded" . the caddy book contradicts itself. There is no clear answer in the caddy book for how to play Pauls second shot.

 

[SD86]

Uh... No? Because between Paul himself, the spotters, his cardmates and everyone following the group not one person knew he was misplaying. So obviously it wasn't known to everyone. And it's pretty easy to see why.

It's not just the caddy book is "poorly worded" . the caddy book contradicts itself. There is no clear answer in the caddy book for how to play Pauls second shot.

I didn't say EVERYONE knew, but it was known because some did it right on day 2 and McBeth realized his error.

And while poorly worded, the caddy book rule is not contradictory. He didn't make the island, so he had to go back to where the disc was last IB.

 

[Pbmercil]

And while poorly worded, the caddy book rule is not contradictory. He didn't make the island, so he had to go back to where the disc was last IB.

Yup. And where was last in bounds was on the island. So where was he supposed to go?

 

[araytx]

I'm not clear on if this is to be played as a "Throw & Distance" penalty (that we've tried to avoid this year) or the non-standard scenario where the player at least advances to the edge of the inbounds area they just threw from to make their next throw?

It's not throw & distance. I think he's supposed to play from the last spot inbounds on the fairway. If you'll look at the flyover hole preview, there's a lane (strip) of grass mowed toward the island ... but it's not inbounds. That strip is out-of-bounds, as the green is a separate inbounds "island". Any shot not coming to rest on the island should play from last spot inbounds in the big fairway, with one-throw penalty.

I'd like to believe that the PDGA checked and approved the wordings on the caddy book for clarity.

Yup. And where was last in bounds was on the island. So where was he supposed to go?

He's throwing (albeit from one knee) from inbounds (a) over inbounds (b), over out-of-bounds (c), over inbounds (d), hitting ground inbounds (e), and coming to rest out-of-bounds (f). The answer is the last spot in (b). Not (d) or (e).

 

[Cgkdisc]

I didn't say EVERYONE knew, but it was known because some did it right on day 2 and McBeth realized his error.

And while poorly worded, the caddy book rule is not contradictory. He didn't make the island, so he had to go back to where the disc was last IB.

It's abnormal to move forward to the first of two "last points inbounds". Thus the confusion since a re-throw would be a more typical way to play a missed island (although "throw & distance" penalties need a waiver).

 

[SD86]

Yup. And where was last in bounds was on the island. So where was he supposed to go?

No, the last inbounds was NOT on the island. In order to do what McBeth did, it had to land inbounds on the island, and THEN an OB throw (say a rollaway off the basket), and THEN he could've taken his meter in and thrown. Since that did not happen, since the disc was never landed (at rest) on the island, he should've gone back to the last place it crossed the IB/OB line (like Big Jerm did on the 18th in today's round).

 

[SD86]

And here's something else to gum up the works: McBeth is technically losing two strokes, but practically losing only one. If he'd played correctly yesterday, he'd likely have made bogey, not par. So he'd have had an extra stroke. So he's really only going to be one stroke worse off after the penalty, practically speaking.

And it may not matter... IMHO McBeth could not put his foot on the gas and put the hammer down when he had some chances to create some separation with Wysocki. (And yes, Wysocki could've created even MORE separation than he did). McBeth of 2016 is not playing like McBeth of 2015, as we know already... McBeth may come back, Wysocki may not get the job done (as in the past), so we'll see...

 

[Pbmercil]

No, the last inbounds was NOT on the island. In order to do what McBeth did, it had to land inbounds on the island, and THEN an OB throw (say a rollaway off the basket), and THEN he could've taken his meter in and thrown. Since that did not happen, since the disc was never landed (at rest) on the island, he should've gone back to the last place it crossed the IB/OB line (like Big Jerm did on the 18th in today's round).

You are not listening to what I'm saying at all. I understand how he was *supposed* to play it. But the wording in the caddy book contradicts playing it that way because of the phrasing. It says:

"All subsequent OB throws play from last point in bounds". Which means he took the correct lie according to that sentence. However, the sentence after that contradicts the first. Again, I understand how it is supposed to be played, but the caddy book is so poorly phrased you could reasonably play it either way.

 

[SD86]

You are not listening to what I'm saying at all. I understand how he was *supposed* to play it. But the wording in the caddy book contradicts playing it that way because of the phrasing. It says:

"All subsequent OB throws play from last point in bounds". Which means he took the correct lie according to that sentence. However, the sentence after that contradicts the first. Again, I understand how it is supposed to be played, but the caddy book is so poorly phrased you could reasonably play it either way.

I read what you wrote, and I do not agree with your assessment of it. I do not believe the sentences contradict each other like you are saying they do.

 

[Pbmercil]

I read what you wrote, and I do not agree with your assessment of it. I do not believe the sentences contradict each other like you are saying they do.

Then you do not understand the meaning of "last point in bounds"

 

[JC17393]

It's abnormal to move forward to the first of two "last points inbounds". Thus the confusion since a re-throw would be a more typical way to play a missed island (although "throw & distance" penalties need a waiver).

While it's abnormal to play it that way, the concept of an "island green" is not unknown to players like McBeth. It is something that originated at the USDGC and has been utilized semi-frequently since then. I imagine if they used the phrasing "island green" in the caddy book, the confusion would disappear.

While the caddy book may be vague if you don't understand or aren't familiar with the island green concept, clearly it isn't that McBeth read the book and didn't understand it. He simply didn't recognize that it was an island green that had to be played as such. Sexton said something about thinking the walking path to the "island" was an inbounds area, which would mean the green isn't an island (Sexton had it wrong and was saying as much). If that's what McBeth thought, it's easy to understand why he didn't play it by "island green" rules.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I read what you wrote, and I do not agree with your assessment of it. I do not believe the sentences contradict each other like you are saying they do.

The rule uses temporal OB/IB, i.e. the state of the playing surface is time or incident dependent. This is uncommon but is used once in awhile although designers might not call it that. In other words, before the disc lands on the island green, the island surface is OB. Thus, the last point inbounds is back at the edge of the inbounds area where the player is throwing from if their disc doesn't land on the island. Once a disc is at rest on the previously "OB" island, the island magically becomes inbounds for that disc/player.

 

[Pbmercil]

The rule uses temporal OB/IB, i.e. the state of the playing surface is time or incident dependent. This is uncommon but is used once in awhile although designers might not call it that. In other words, before the disc lands on the island green, the island surface is OB. Thus, the last point inbounds is back at the edge of the inbounds area where the player is throwing from if their disc doesn't land on the island. Once a disc is at rest on the previously "OB" island, the island magically becomes inbounds for that disc/player.

Yup. Makes perfect sense to me! (Jk. Kinda.) thanks Chuck.

 

[Pbmercil]

Looks like Paul officially took a 2 stroke misplay penalty. His round from yesterday is now showing a 48 not a 46.

 

[SD86]

The rule uses temporal OB/IB, i.e. the state of the playing surface is time or incident dependent. This is uncommon but is used once in awhile although designers might not call it that. In other words, before the disc lands on the island green, the island surface is OB. Thus, the last point inbounds is back at the edge of the inbounds area where the player is throwing from if their disc doesn't land on the island. Once a disc is at rest on the previously "OB" island, the island magically becomes inbounds for that disc/player.

I entirely agree.

 

[Steve West]

The rule uses temporal OB/IB, i.e. the state of the playing surface is time or incident dependent. This is uncommon but is used once in awhile although designers might not call it that. In other words, before the disc lands on the island green, the island surface is OB. Thus, the last point inbounds is back at the edge of the inbounds area where the player is throwing from if their disc doesn't land on the island. Once a disc is at rest on the previously "OB" island, the island magically becomes inbounds for that disc/player.

So why wasn't all that (or any of that) in the caddy book?

If Paul had played a provisional...