~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[HyzerUniBomber]

I agree it's likely fundamental...I'm going to try to get more forward like an infielder ready for the play as SW described...something I actually know how to do.

I know you were most likely influenced (like I was) by that Will S. "how to video", because damn, you're doing a pretty solid impersonation! The thing I now hate about that video, is that he's all flat push and no down swing - it's so gnarly trying to undo that move.

What I like about the downswing and the windmill drill, is that if you go tall-toes to crushing and bracing for impact - the system itself gives you the power.

All of the power you need. The arc gets tacked on and you've got your motor. You don't have to hurry it up, just let it get to the center chest.

You depart the backfoot completely as the disc starts moving forward and the natural windmill sensation is analogous to "tossing a basketball underhand" forward.

In fact, I'd bet if you took a basket ball to the field (or a few balls) and windmilled them forward with both hands, you'd find yourself naturally tilting.

 

[sidewinder22]

I know you were most likely influenced (like I was) by that Will S. "how to video", because damn, you're doing a pretty solid impersonation! The thing I now hate about that video, is that he's all flat push and no down swing - it's so gnarly trying to undo that move.

What I like about the downswing and the windmill drill, is that if you go tall-toes to crushing and bracing for impact - the system itself gives you the power.

All of the power you need. The arc gets tacked on and you've got your motor. You don't have to hurry it up, just let it get to the center chest.

You depart the backfoot completely as the disc starts moving forward and the natural windmill sensation is analogous to "tossing a basketball underhand" forward.

In fact, I'd bet if you took a basket ball to the field (or a few balls) and windmilled them forward with both hands, you'd find yourself naturally tilting.

I hate the "keep the head down" more than anything, but yeah it's super hard to stay low like he does and actually shift your weight properly, need to change your level and get taller in the x-step and then lower to pump the ground to swing. Tossing basketball or a slegdehammer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BUOAZrbMGs#t=4m

 

[slowplastic]

I think you're spot on with everything you said in that post. That video definitely made me emphasize the wrong things for a long time...there's just certain things that "look" important in his form when you don't know how it should actually feel. You're right about the forward shift movement, I feel like it's way easier to feel a drop in an X-step for me since I can pop up to the toes, so good reminder about the windmill drill to feel that lift to drop in a standstill.

It's funny, I was a little while ago mimicking a lefty FH motion and it felt HORRIBLE with how my spine is used to moving that direction from RHBH. That extra late lurch forward just feels bad when I focus on the back arm, even though actually throwing a disc LHFH would feel bad anyways. Then with the description of throwing/rolling a large ball like that, also like how Schusterick does it in the bowling video, gets me forward naturally. I can almost imagine doing a LHFH with my back arm while doing a RHBH motion to keep my spine forward.

I guess these are all variations on how to visualize the battering ram. It's funny how so many things can seem different or you have to hear things different ways until one of them clicks. At least now I'm really identifying this bad balance and can hopefully get it refined.

 

[slowplastic]

What I like about the downswing and the windmill drill, is that if you go tall-toes to crushing and bracing for impact - the system itself gives you the power.

All of the power you need. The arc gets tacked on and you've got your motor. You don't have to hurry it up, just let it get to the center chest.

Yeah I like your reasoning too that you don't have to speed it up like with a fast linear X-step...compared to say GG with a more vertical hop and then heavy drop.

So compared to a standstill/one step/windmill, whatever of your choice, how much do you gain with an X-step since you focus on the ground impact anyways? Is there still a significant velocity/distance increase and do you have to work on keeping the same feel quite a lot?

 

[sidewinder22]

Same Gravitron machine feel. I can standstill and hop and generate almost as much power as an x-step(it's harder to aim with just the vertical hop though), there's still a horizontal acceleration component landing on the back leg and moving into the plant leg like coming down a half pipe into the plant.

Gravity is what gives you weight. Force is measured in weight. Much more efficient to let gravity accelerate your mass on the way down and pump it up off the ground, than you trying to accelerate your mass horizontally and transform it to weight through bracing. Vertical brace is efficient and your body is built for it, it's how you stand up and walk around and knee bends. Horizontal brace is less efficient and harder on the body, puts more horizontal torque on joints like the knee that isn't meant to bend that way.

 

[slowplastic]

Same Gravitron machine feel. I can standstill and hop and generate almost as much power as an x-step(it's harder to aim with just the vertical hop though), there's still a horizontal acceleration component landing on the back leg and moving into the plant leg like coming down a half pipe into the plant.

Gravity is what gives you weight. Force is measured in weight. Much more efficient to let gravity accelerate your mass on the way down and pump it up off the ground, than you trying to accelerate your mass horizontally and transform it to weight through bracing. Vertical brace is efficient and your body is built for it, it's how you stand up and walk around and knee bends. Horizontal brace is less efficient and harder on the body, puts more horizontal torque on joints like the knee that isn't meant to bend that way.

Well I guess force is weight since it relates mass to the gravitational pull/acceleration...

But more importantly, that makes sense. Like how Griffey Jr. has such a small length stride, heavy drop, and relatively vertical brace leg.

I will definitely work my standstills to more of a drop to help keep my knee happy, and hopefully translate that well to an X-step. I've been throwing so many standstills lately that I actually am throwing the same or shorter X-step. I'm not too concerned though, it takes repetition and I would like to have more of the drop->brace rather than have to really catch/redirect myself from forward momentum.

How much difference do you find though for yourself? I know you can throw standstills very efficiently, so do you gain even 10%ish with a stride?

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, Griffey Jr = Steve Brinster.

About 15-20% more distance, and feels about 50% more effortless due to more hop than horizontal though.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Yeah I like your reasoning too that you don't have to speed it up like with a fast linear X-step...compared to say GG with a more vertical hop and then heavy drop.

So compared to a standstill/one step/windmill, whatever of your choice, how much do you gain with an X-step since you focus on the ground impact anyways? Is there still a significant velocity/distance increase and do you have to work on keeping the same feel quite a lot?

Without flexing or relying on turn, I have thrown speed 10 drivers 400' - from a 1 step. I have an example windmill to 400' at the end of the windmill drill video. That power feels extremely reproducible, as I'm just catching my own weight and I don't have to generate anything.

When I add an x-step, I might be able to generate another 15% of distance, but truth be told - I don't know exactly where that increase is coming from. If I had to guess, it'd be mainly more forward momentum adding to the downshift. If that extra power is available I can focus a bit more on angles and setting the arc starting line nice and deep in the power pocket.

It's super weird because I think if I look at my form in a 1-step, it's about as good as I can do right now. An x-step will often times make certain things worse in my form, but the momentum makes up for it.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

An old video ('89) of a golf pro: Search: Jimmy Ballard: The Fundamental Golf Swing (June 11, 1989) - was shared and he used some terminology that completely blew me away as a disc golf teacher and student!

Paraphrasing, "if you take a basketball and throw it forward with two hands, you do nearly everything right"... and let me tell you, I had to agree!!!

One of the simplest ways to fix/feel a solid brace - is something you've probably done hundreds of times in your life.

 

[slowplastic]

I didn't touch a disc or think about my own throw for 4 or 5 days and just got back from a round. I am getting better balance, I know it's not there yet but right direction

What I'm wondering about is something I felt in a couple throws where I think I got forward with my shoulder/spine close to the right way, rather than staying back then jutting forward. From the power pocket through the hit point and follow through all I felt was a connection up my right side from my pelvis to my shoulder. It was like a band going up my side. The disc just went out from there, without really trying. I didn't feel anything in my shoulder socket or shoulder muscles at all.

Is this something I should be aiming for or trying to reproduce...not really feeling like my shoulder itself is doing anything?

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

To me, that sounds like your describing a whole system powered throw instead of setup of the arm, and then an arm throw.

When I let the whole body flow through the motion, I end up feeling that band of strength, but without muscle. Like you're just holding the frame in place as it accelerates.

 

[sidewinder22]

^^ Yep to both posts above me. I feel like a big spring, compression into the pocket, effortless spring away to apex.

 

[slowplastic]

I'm slowly honing in the balance, getting better and feeling very easy to hit lines and not as jerky. I know I'm not there yet but just wanted to ask a question about feel.

As I'm in the transition and about to plant, I can feel where my lead shoulder is above my brace leg/foot. I then have been imagining that my left shoulder will just "take its place" in space. This way I've been rotating around my spine instead of being jutted forward after impact, or having my throwing shoulder stopped in space and the left shoulder orbit around it.

Does this sound correct for feel...that the shoulders kind of swap places through the shot/after release? Or am I potentially restricting myself by going for this?

I know it's not there yet because I'm not booming shots, but I am definitely hitting good distances and feeling in balance. Putter shots feel easier than ever, I'm tempted on some tweener holes to throw the putter instead of mids now not because I can, but because it seems better finally. I think I'm still using my arm too soon, or likely not having the right sequence of using my leg extension/hip clear to pull my body forward and THEN swinging the arm, since my hand still comes up although my elbow looks ok.

 

[sidewinder22]

I'm slowly honing in the balance, getting better and feeling very easy to hit lines and not as jerky. I know I'm not there yet but just wanted to ask a question about feel.

As I'm in the transition and about to plant, I can feel where my lead shoulder is above my brace leg/foot. I then have been imagining that my left shoulder will just "take its place" in space. This way I've been rotating around my spine instead of being jutted forward after impact, or having my throwing shoulder stopped in space and the left shoulder orbit around it.

Does this sound correct for feel...that the shoulders kind of swap places through the shot/after release? Or am I potentially restricting myself by going for this?

I know it's not there yet because I'm not booming shots, but I am definitely hitting good distances and feeling in balance. Putter shots feel easier than ever, I'm tempted on some tweener holes to throw the putter instead of mids now not because I can, but because it seems better finally. I think I'm still using my arm too soon, or likely not having the right sequence of using my leg extension/hip clear to pull my body forward and THEN swinging the arm, since my hand still comes up although my elbow looks ok.

When I'm about to plant/top of backswing I feel my right shoulder centered right over the left instep. After planting and weightshift I feel like I bring my right shoulder forward like 3' centered right over the front instep. The left shoulder/arm leads the right shoulder forward into front leg brace, so the left arm/shoulder/hip shifts from behind a couple inches in weightshift and then right shoulder/arm/disc orbits around braced/anchored left shoulder/arm. In the finish I feel my left shoulder finish right over the right instep and pointed right at the apex. So it kind of feels like the left shoulder/arm is the center of rotation of the shoulders/arm/disc unit as a giant lever or a spring lagged 5 lever-pendulum from the left shoulder.

I did this for billyjacko a while ago, green arc is right shoulder, purple arc is left shoulder. The arcs do appear to actually intersect right over the front instep and match much of what I feel there.

 

[slowplastic]

That markup is great and much of that already makes sense for what I feel. That exact intersection point is how it feels they swap places to me...as I am planting I am aware of how my lead shoulder is over my plant foot, and I imagine my left shoulder going to take its place. And that's exactly over my instep and where you also show your left shoulder crossing the path that your right shoulder was on.

Because I'm thinking about my left shoulder moving there, that also sounds like how you use your left shoulder to lead the right shoulder forward. I don't think I'm there yet, but I can feel how everything turns together rather than before when it was my shoulder socket rocketing open while paused in space.

I think I understand what you mean about the left shoulder being the centre of rotation. I've never seen that, I know you have said before left shoulder to brace but I've never actually visualized it in a real image. So it ends up over the plant foot in dynamic balance at the hit point, while the lead shoulder was rotated targetward already...it's not the upper spine/neck that is balanced over the brace foot at the hit...it's the left shoulder...so the entire shoulder unit is a pendulum arm, not neck to right shoulder with neck to left shoulder counter rotating.

Actually after some practice swings...

This is pretty amazingly different. Before when I was practicing lefty golf/baseball swings, or lefty FH motion it felt so bad with my spine jutting. I realize my righty FH shot is "good" because I bring my right shoulder to my left plant foot. Same thing should happen in backhand! Even though I'm not using my left arm to throw, bring the left shoulder to the plant foot so it's the same balance as a lefty FH shot, and the right shoulder opens way up to the side and almost backwards feeling. This is so different to my prior goal of centering my upper spine on my plant foot so that I could get an "even" rotation through my spine with part of my torso on either side of the brace for balance, as I thought it should happen.

Again, does this sound right? I've never felt the whole shoulder unit on the same side of the brace axis before, something I thought would surely put me out of balance. I initially was bracing right shoulder on plant foot, keeping shoulder stopped in space to unload the socket. Then spine over plant foot. So this is such a different concept than I ever imagined a shot would be.

But even with a lever, I feel HUGE lag/load of forearm and wrist like this already from a handful of swings, and effortless follow through.

 

[slowplastic]

Left arm right pocket is one of the only things I have tried that made immediate and drastic improvement, and now I will never throw any other way. Instant turbo booster.

I'm stealing this quote from another thread, but this makes perfect sense now.

This is a great way to make sure/feel that you're aligning your rear/left shoulder onto your plant/right leg and making this the axis. So easy to swing through effortlessly and stay balanced.

It's not about loading or jamming your left side forward with speed...it's about bringing your left side forward so it is the new balance point.

 

[sidewinder22]

I think I understand what you mean about the left shoulder being the centre of rotation. I've never seen that, I know you have said before left shoulder to brace but I've never actually visualized it in a real image. So it ends up over the plant foot in dynamic balance at the hit point, while the lead shoulder was rotated targetward already...it's not the upper spine/neck that is balanced over the brace foot at the hit...it's the left shoulder...so the entire shoulder unit is a pendulum arm, not neck to right shoulder with neck to left shoulder counter rotating.

Actually after some practice swings...

This is pretty amazingly different. Before when I was practicing lefty golf/baseball swings, or lefty FH motion it felt so bad with my spine jutting. I realize my righty FH shot is "good" because I bring my right shoulder to my left plant foot. Same thing should happen in backhand! Even though I'm not using my left arm to throw, bring the left shoulder to the plant foot so it's the same balance as a lefty FH shot, and the right shoulder opens way up to the side and almost backwards feeling. This is so different to my prior goal of centering my upper spine on my plant foot so that I could get an "even" rotation through my spine with part of my torso on either side of the brace for balance, as I thought it should happen.

Again, does this sound right? I've never felt the whole shoulder unit on the same side of the brace axis before, something I thought would surely put me out of balance. I initially was bracing right shoulder on plant foot, keeping shoulder stopped in space to unload the socket. Then spine over plant foot. So this is such a different concept than I ever imagined a shot would be.

But even with a lever, I feel HUGE lag/load of forearm and wrist like this already from a handful of swings, and effortless follow through.

Yep, that is what I'm talking about in Stop Hugging Yourself - One Arm Olympic Hammer Throw, with the swing center being different with a two-handed swing vs one-handed swing.

Two-handed swing, the swing center comes straight out the sternum between both arms/shoulders.

One-handed swing, the swing center comes straight out the shoulder/s.

 

[sidewinder22]

I'm stealing this quote from another thread, but this makes perfect sense now.

This is a great way to make sure/feel that you're aligning your rear/left shoulder onto your plant/right leg and making this the axis. So easy to swing through effortlessly and stay balanced.

It's not about loading or jamming your left side forward with speed...it's about bringing your left side forward so it is the new balance point.

I wouldn't say the left side is a new balance point, it's an anchor or fulcrum or leverage point. Your head is the only balance point.

IMO left hand in right pocket is extreme exaggeration, might lead to early opening or over-rotation. I recommend the left hand in left pocket, or inside left thigh like Marc Jarvis/One Leg Drill. Or just don't spill the beverage, or use the pool cue stick with the left arm to leverage/swim forward like GG.

McBeth on distance throw - left hand by left pocket:

 

[slowplastic]

Yep, that is what I'm talking about in Stop Hugging Yourself - One Arm Olympic Hammer Throw, with the swing center being different with a two-handed swing vs one-handed swing.

Two-handed swing, the swing center comes straight out the sternum between both arms/shoulders.

One-handed swing, the swing center comes straight out the shoulder/s.

I definitely didn't get that from that video. Rewatching it I can see the angles and I really think I'm getting it now, but I still don't feel like it explicitly is showing me the tilt for my learning style, I misunderstood.

I just want to be 100% sure I'm stating all of these things correctly:

-in a 2 handed swing like baseball/golf, my swing axis is still my spine/between my shoulders. The leverage/hit point is closer to me because it is two handed rather than a disc/hammer that is one handed and extended out longer. I should feel like I brace or center my spine/sternum on my plant leg for the swing.

-in a RHBH I brace my left/trailing shoulder on the right/brace leg. This makes my entire shoulder unit a lever on the "swing side" of the throw, and the hit point is way out front since this is a one handed swing and the trailing arm doesn't need to be attached.

-in a RHFH shot I still brace my trailing shoulder, this case right shoulder against plant/left leg. I do not have the shoulder unit now as part of the swing, as the right shoulder is essentially on the axis. This is why FH inherently has less distance capability from backhand?

.....

Here is an illustration showing how I was thinking about tilted spiral compared to what I now am seeing and feeling.

I thought the tilted spiral was the spine axis, and how it pivoted/swiveled targetward with the butt countering the chest/shoulders. This is as in the McBeth image.

Now I am feeling that the tilted spiral is actually an imagined axis from rear shoulder to plant leg, and it allows the entire shoulder unit to be the first lever of the pendulum.

If this is correct, I've been essentially missing an entire pendulum multiplier, that also happens to be the first pendulum of the sequence and a long one as it's the length of my left shoulder to right shoulder? This would almost be like comparing a beginner who rounds their throw to my current form that has the upper arm to elbow lever added...and why pro's have another 100'+ from me?

 

[slowplastic]

I wouldn't say the left side is a new balance point, it's an anchor or fulcrum or leverage point. Your head is the only balance point.

Yes this is a much better wording of how it's feeling to me.

I am feeling like my head/spine is still balanced, but I guess the lines I drew above are how it feels like the left shoulder can be a fulcrum so that the entire shoulder unit unloads.

If the left shoulder was the balance point then your head would get tossed way out there during the swing and it would feel terrible.