801.02 Enforcement - Suggestion

[cheesethin]

Inspired by comments on a FB debate. One guy was saying he wouldn't call himself OB, he'd let the group decide. Another guy was saying the player whose disc it was shouldn't give their opinion on OB calls due to implicit bias.

My thought is that a player can and should both call themselves OB, and voice their thought in the discussion.

So I propose, to make explicit, the following addition.

801.02 Enforcement

B. Players are expected to call a violation when one has clearly occurred. A call must be made promptly to be enforceable (except for misplays).
C. A player in the group may call or confirm a rules violation on any player in the group, including on themselves, by notifying all players in the group.

 

[knivvves]

I feel like that would be redundant and they've already made it explicit by saying

Players are expected to call a violation

and

on any player in the group

What else would those things be implying? Even if they're your buddy?

 

[cheesethin]

What else would those things be implying? Even if they're your buddy?

I agree it is implicit in those rules. But two things; one I think that a lot of people read this

on any player in the group

as

on any other player in the group

And two, it highlights the requirement to make calls on yourself.

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[kenjiac]

Someone who won't call themselves out won't be swayed by the little nuance in the rule book. If you don't have the integrity to just admit you are out of bounds you have a bigger issue to work on than reading comprehension.

 

[cheesethin]

Someone who won't call themselves out won't be swayed by the little nuance in the rule book. If you don't have the integrity to just admit you are out of bounds you have a bigger issue to work on than reading comprehension.

All very true. In the short term, individual's behaviours won't be dramatically altered by a simple wording change in a book they may not even read.

But, longer term, I think cultural mores and standards can be affected by things like this. From little nudges, big movements can happen. Things like this filter through, having it explicit in the rules helps.

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[Doofenshmirtz]

Inspired by comments on a FB debate. One guy was saying he wouldn't call himself OB, he'd let the group decide. Another guy was saying the player whose disc it was shouldn't give their opinion on OB calls due to implicit bias.

My thought is that a player can and should both call themselves OB, and voice their thought in the discussion.

So I propose, to make explicit, the following addition.

I think you are looking at the wrong rule. Throwing OB is not a violation. Playing from OB is the violation and is addressed by Section 811. It doesn't matter if anyone calls a player OB, if they play from OB they have committed a violation. It is the player's duty to play from the correct lie. If the player walks up to his OB disc and "doesn't call it OB" and then plays from it, he is subject to a penalty.

"E. A player who deliberately misplays the course to gain competitive advantage may be disqualified in accordance with Section 3.03 of the Competition Manual.

F. Types of misplay:

1. Incorrect Lie. The player has played from a lie that is not the correct lie. For example, the player has:

a. Teed off from a teeing area that is not the correct teeing area for the current hole; or,
b. Thrown from a lie other than that established by the thrown disc; or,
c Played an out-of-bounds disc as if it were in-bounds; or, . . ."​

 

[sidewinder22]

The group determines the lie. If you just pick up and call yourself OB the group might not be able to tell where it went OB and where the lie should be played from.

 

[cheesethin]

I think you are looking at the wrong rule. Throwing OB is not a violation. Playing from OB is the violation and is addressed by Section 811. It doesn't matter if anyone calls a player OB, if they play from OB they have committed a violation. It is the player's duty to play from the correct lie. If the player walks up to his OB disc and "doesn't call it OB" and then plays from it, he is subject to a penalty.

I lacked clarity in my op. I was referring to people who don't call violations themselves. IE they don't call a foot fault on themselves, or when they believe their disc is OB on a close call, they shut up, and let the group decide, hoping for a favourable outcome.

I wasn't talking about playing from an OB area, intentionally or unintentionally.

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[Armus Patheticus]

What if you are guilty of a violation, a falling putt for example, and the rest of your card are either too foolish or too unobservant to second the call? By the rules then, you've gotten away with breaking the rules, aided by three other rule breakers. What should you do? Try to fix it with some more rules? I had the card so simply added the penalty myself, without a second, making a right (or right enough) from a whole tangle of wrongs.

 

[Steve West]

What if you are guilty of a violation, a falling putt for example, and the rest of your card are either too foolish or too unobservant to second the call? By the rules then, you've gotten away with breaking the rules, aided by three other rule breakers. What should you do? Try to fix it with some more rules? I had the card so simply added the penalty myself, without a second, making a right (or right enough) from a whole tangle of wrongs.

You tried to fix it with yet another wrong. You violated "801.02 E. A call made by a player for a rules violation that results in one or more penalty throws can only be enforced if the call is confirmed by another player in the group or by a Tournament Official."

There is already a way to deal with this. What you should have done is called a courtesy violation on the other three in the card for violating 801.02 B. with 812 B. 1. & 2.

 

[Armus Patheticus]

You tried to fix it with yet another wrong. You violated "801.02 E. A call made by a player for a rules violation that results in one or more penalty throws can only be enforced if the call is confirmed by another player in the group or by a Tournament Official."

There is already a way to deal with this. What you should have done is called a courtesy violation on the other three in the card for violating 801.02 B. with 812 B. 1. & 2.

No, that's not what I should have done. That would only have the potential to broaden my unfair advantage. I know what the rules are, but I don't care about the letter of the law.

I did fix the problem with yet another wrong. That was the whole point of my post.

 

[BillFleming]

What if you are guilty of a violation, a falling putt for example, and the rest of your card are either too foolish or too unobservant to second the call? By the rules then, you've gotten away with breaking the rules, aided by three other rule breakers. What should you do? Try to fix it with some more rules? I had the card so simply added the penalty myself, without a second, making a right (or right enough) from a whole tangle of wrongs.

Was this in a tournament? If so, were you a designated Rules Official? If not, then you had no right to make the decision on your own or change the score.

Read 808.E. on scoring:

If there is disagreement about the score a player reports, the group reviews the hole and attempts to arrive at the correct score. If the group cannot reach consensus on the player's score, they seek the help of an Official or the Director as soon as is practical. If all players in the group agree that a score is incorrect, the score may be corrected before the scorecard is turned in.

What SHOULD have happened, is that you would have stated you disagree with the score and why. Then the group would decide.

Unfortunately, I don't see a rule that covers a player intentionally marking down an incorrect score for a player.

What happens sometimes with out of bounds is that it isn't always clear. By rule, a disc must be fully out of bounds (806.02.b). At times one person's perspective of 'fully out of bounds' isn't the same as others. If the edge of a disc is touching the OB line, but the rest of the disc is definitely OB, the disc is still In Bounds. In water it can be even less clear. To one person, the edge of a disc may be touching land, and to another, the entire disc has water around it - this happens in marshy areas. I've been a spotter and seen these types of issues happen - the player wasn't trying to take advantage or anything....they honestly thought their disc was in bounds. Likewise, I've seen a player call another one's disc out of bounds when one edge was still touching the OB line. That's why the rule requires a majority of the card to make the decision OR have the Tournament Director (or designated Rules Official) make the decision.

 

[Armus Patheticus]

Was this in a tournament? If so, were you a designated Rules Official? If not, then you had no right to make the decision on your own or change the score.
.

Yes Bill it was in a tournament. No I am not a rules official. I don't believe in rights as much as I do responsibilities. I don't believe in rules as much as I do principles. I violated a fundamental principle of the game, and rules be durned, I punished myself for it. It was easy.

 

[araytx]

Yes Bill it was in a tournament. No I am not a rules official. I don't believe in rights as much as I do responsibilities. I don't believe in rules as much as I do principles. I violated a fundamental principle of the game, and rules be durned, I punished myself for it. It was easy.

Well, weak arm, I do appreciate the sentiment, but you're also violating a fundamental principle of the game, one of nearly every sport. And this is, "the purpose of rules is to be sure everyone is playing the same game when they are competing." And when everyone doesn't, it can be unfair to the entire group of players in the event.

That being said, why not just tell the group, "Hey guys I violated _____ rule there. Anyone disagree with me assessing myself a penalty?" And then you'd only need one confirmation (if it was a group of 4) to be both within your principles and the rules.

 

[Armus Patheticus]

Well, weak arm, I do appreciate the sentiment, but you're also violating a fundamental principle of the game, one of nearly every sport. And this is, "the purpose of rules is to be sure everyone is playing the same game when they are competing." And when everyone doesn't, it can be unfair to the entire group of players in the event.

That being said, why not just tell the group, "Hey guys I violated _____ rule there. Anyone disagree with me assessing myself a penalty?" And then you'd only need one confirmation (if it was a group of 4) to be both within your principles and the rules.

I did report the violation and the other guys shrugged it off or said they didn't see it. This has happened to me twice. I once was mocked for reporting myself when I stepped on my disc while throwing. I did nothing to remedy that wrong.

As for the often quoted purpose of the rules that you share here, I have found that the rules are powerless to create a universal playing experience. In fact, to the extent that they can be twisted (and they can be) and the extent to which their enforcement is variable (it is), the rules themselves serve as a guarantee that we are playing different games.

There is no way to solve the problem of poor character in competition. More rules cannot do it. So I view this as an individual problem and do my best. If you can explain how my penalizing myself is unfair to the other players I may reconsider the propriety of my choice.

 

[sonny]

If the edge of a disc is touching the OB line, but the rest of the disc is definitely OB, the disc is still In Bounds.

Bill,
The line itself is OB. If just the edge of the disc is touching the OB line without any part of the disc crossing the line over into the in-bounds area, the disc is out of bounds.

https://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/80602

 

[BogeyNoMore]

The easy way to explain/interpret it is: if any part of the disc is in bounds, then the throw is IB.
But Sonny makes an important point: The line itself is OB... it's called the OB line and not the IB line for a reason.
That's an important distinction.


Unlike baseball, where the foul pole is mis-named... it should be called the fair pole. A ball that hits the yellow "foul pole" is actually fair... but that's a whole other discussion.

 

[DiscFifty]

I did report the violation and the other guys shrugged it off or said they didn't see it. This has happened to me twice. I once was mocked for reporting myself when I stepped on my disc while throwing. I did nothing to remedy that wrong.

As for the often quoted purpose of the rules that you share here, I have found that the rules are powerless to create a universal playing experience. In fact, to the extent that they can be twisted (and they can be) and the extent to which their enforcement is variable (it is), the rules themselves serve as a guarantee that we are playing different games.

There is no way to solve the problem of poor character in competition. More rules cannot do it. So I view this as an individual problem and do my best. If you can explain how my penalizing myself is unfair to the other players I may reconsider the propriety of my choice.

Far out man...