Adjusting Pars?

[bettsjc]

I play everything is a par 3, for the purpose of easy scorekeeping. I don't see anything wrong with a +400' hole that isn't a straight shot being a 4. Hey, as long as when you are competing you are playing on the same scoring, who cares!?

 

[Lewis]

I agree that most courses don't have any holes that should be greater than par 3 unless you want to use a beginner-friendly scoring system, but there are a lot of holes out there that in my opinion should be par 2, if par is supposed to mean "What an expert player would score on this hole," and "expert" means someone playing MA1 or better. I don't really get the mystique of calling everything par 3, unless maybe you're bad at math.

 

[WillA]

Good grief! Olorin where are you man????

It makes no sense to play everythinga s a par 3. It does NOT make it easier to keep score, it makes the game look like a joke to outsiders, and it will prevent the game from growing because people will gripe about holes that no one can get a 3 on.

Our course in Murray isn't an extremely long course but we have two holes where even the best players almost never get 2's. Those are not par 3 holes.

To me, the notion that it is easier to keep score by counting everything as a three makes no sense at all. If you use a scorecard it doesn't matter at all. If you don't and you generally get a 4 on a hole counting it as a 3 makes you do more math than you would otherwise do.

We have discussed this before and I think it's clear that the PDGA would like to eradicate this mindset.

I play whatever thye sign says. If the apr is set too high then I' not happy unless I shoot under par. There are easy courses and hard courses just like in ball golf and that's a good thing.

 

[JoshBusche27]

No system is absolute.

Sometimes you have to adjust, if you are a new player, maybe play a 300' as a par 4. If you are a pro, obviously play it as a 3.

But just like in ball golf... You are playing against yourself, it doesn't mean anything if you constantly:
IMPROVE YOUR LIE
Take mulligans
re-putt
don't take a stroke for retreving your disc from a river

If you start playing and do all these things, you might shoot... 3 over par. Then after playing for 6 months... you're still shooting 3 over par.
It feels like you've gotten better... but your score card says differently.

Play honest, keep it fun, and try to improve. Adjust the par if you have to, but keep it consistent, then you can see yourself make improvements to your game.

 

[wtafro]

I play everything as a par 3 except when I play with some of my friends that aren't very good. When I play with them, we play what the course designates, because if we didn't they would probably quit.

 

[ShaZaun]

I call everthing a 3 just so it's easier to stroke count......I just go by the # of strokes it takes especially during mini's...........

 

[WillA]

The vast majority of tournaments use course par. I don't really care if someone plays everything as a 3 or a 2 or a 6 but they shouldn't call that par.

 

[Jax11]

For those who mentioned Willow Stream and Twin Creeks in Buffalo Grove I consider those my home courses (unfortunate yes...) the posted pars are ridiculously easy. After two weeks of playing I was shooting -9 the posted par at Willow Stream. My Dad brother and I then went on an excursion to Michigan to play some better courses like Flip City and Mason County. After that trip we came home and now play most courses around here as straight Par 3. I agree, there is a time and place for Par 4's and even Par 5's but in the Chicagoland area the pars seem generally too high. They are useful in getting beginners some confidence though.

 

[WillA]

Here is a post Olorin made earlier on why par is important. I can't improve on this.

1.) In tournaments when a player is late you need the par for a hole to know what penalty score to give that player. (The penalty is par + 4 for missed holes.)
2.) For tournaments a consistent standard allows over/under scoring for spectators and the potential TV audience. A reason to have a hole by hole par established is to compare golfers on different holes. Climo is shooting -7 and Schultz -6 but Climo has played 2 more holes is easier (especially to TV viewers) than saying Climo is at 43 after 17 holes while Shultz is at 37 after 15
3.) So that players can judge their progress by comparison to a consistent standard for what an expert player can expect to score on a hole. This acknowledges the reality of par 2, 4, 5 and even par 6 holes.
3.1.) One of the first questions that most new players ask is "What is par on this hole?" We should be able to give them a consistent and universally accepted answer.
4.) It is easier to keep track of scores in relation to par than by the total numerical value. This is why most players report their score as "6 down" rather than "48".
5.) The reality of disc golf being a golf type game is that the terms "par", "under par", "bogey" and "birdie" naturally accompany the sport. It would be strange to have a sport with the word "golf" in it that doesn't use these terms. If we're going to use the term "par" then it should have a standard method of determining it.
6.) In tournaments such as Worlds with multiple courses you need par to be able to compare players in different pools playing different courses.
7.) Par is an important factor for comparing the difficulty of different courses. Otherwise there is an insurmountable "portability error". A very useful Difficulty Factor is Level Scoring average minus Level Par. This will only be useful if there are consistent, universal standards for par, though.
8.) Expectations of par affect your mental outlook and your performance. This especially comes into play when you play a new course. If Renaissance Gold is a par 54 then it's insanely hard, but if it's par 70 then it's not as tough. If you think you should take a 3 on a 1000 ft. hole then you will try way too hard, but if you accept that it is a par 5 you can relax and pace yourself.
9.) If the term "par" is defined in a multitude of ways by many different people then the term loses its meaning, so it becomes worthless along with the related terms such as "birdie, bogie…".
10.) To be able to determine handicaps.

 

[CwAlbino]

The vast majority of tournaments use course par. I don't really care if someone plays everything as a 3 or a 2 or a 6 but they shouldn't call that par.

I have never played a tournament that goes by course par.

Course par is a joke. Take my home course for example. This is a picture of hole 1 of a 9 hole course. The course par says it's a par 4, all 225 foot straight shot of it.

If you go by the par on the signs, it is a par 35. For 9 holes. When I'm averaging a 24 or less, how is -11 easier than -3?

 

[tbird888]

I have never played a tournament that goes by course par.

Course par is a joke. Take my home course for example. This is a picture of hole 1 of a 9 hole course. The course par says it's a par 4, all 225 foot straight shot of it.

If you go by the par on the signs, it is a par 35. For 9 holes. When I'm averaging a 24 or less, how is -11 easier than -3?

I completely agree. There are courses in my area that were built pre-bevelled edged discs. Par 4s are on anything from 150-250', with par 5s on some holes that are 275'. Anybody that thinks a -20 there is a good score is doing themselves a huge injustice.

To me, it's the same thing as someone who beats a video game on easy and then brags about it. Sad.

 

[maynes32]

To answer the question: I play with all = par three.

The explanation: Right now, I am solidly between being able to play almost all holes near me as a three, and using course par. Also, the holes I often do poorly on are rarely (with a few exceptions) the ones that are par 4's or 5's, which are usually so solely based on distance. The holes I have trouble on are the tight, narrow, short ones that "everyone" should be able to three with no problem. So I don't use course pars because they don't seem to relate to my game well.

The threadjack: What does par really mean? My understanding (from ball golf roots) is that par = the number of shots you require to get to somewhere you can safely two-putt from, plus two putts. The problem is, who is the "you"? Is it different from Pro/Am tees? Does it take into account tightness/hazards/obstacles, or just pure distance? Is this a reasonable standard for disc golf, too?

The real answer: If pars existed on courses, where the pars really seemed to be well thought out (i.e. not par 5 on the 320' hole with just as many obstacles as every other hole, some of which are even longer and par 3), I would play with course par, and would LOVE to do so, as it would help me to accurately gauge my skill.

My $0.02,

BLM

 

[Olorin]

I was really trying to stay out of this one, but since I was quoted I thought I'd give you a link to a more permanent place to find my thoughts on par. If you're interested you can check out this page on "Par". Make sure to click on the subpages for various ideas. YMMV.

 

[Mikie4]

I have never played a tournament that goes by course par.

Neither have I.

I think the the main reason there is still such a large number of people that do not use rec par is that there is no standardized method of assigning pars on holes. I have no idea how ball golf does it but the closest I've seen to attempting a standardization is the PDGA's SSA. While it doesn't give a per hole rating, it does give a good idea about a round par. It only requires that PDGA members actually play the course. It works in my opinion, but not every course can have PDGA members play it.

Maybe when DG gets more popular an organization will come up with a more universal way to do a per hole par, even if it requires sending a team of accomplished players to play the course a handful of times and rating each hole.

 

[Mikie4]

I was really trying to stay out of this one, but since I was quoted I thought I'd give you a link to a more permanent place to find my thoughts on par. If you're interested you can check out this page on "Par". Make sure to click on the subpages for various ideas. YMMV.

I agree with the Gold Close Range Par (see link in quote). They just need to be accepted by some organization. Although, I also think that 'rec' par serves the purpose of keeping people interested. I know plenty of people that would quit playing if they were trying to compare themselves to a gold player.

 

[DavidSauls]

I agree with the Gold Close Range Par (see link in quote). They just need to be accepted by some organization. Although, I also think that 'rec' par serves the purpose of keeping people interested. I know plenty of people that would quit playing if they were trying to compare themselves to a gold player.

I'll start with the disclaimer that I don't care a lot about the "par" arguments, either way, but....

Do ball golfers stop because, as beginners, they are 30 or 40 over par?

That said, what we refer to as "rec par"---the posted pars on a lot of courses---serve well the casual players who are just out for fun, with no intention of ever playing organized competition. And there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[3monsterboys]

I play a bit of both. course par to keep myself happy, and "pro par" just to keep myself a bit competitive. i'm not a pro but seeing my score drop keeps me coming back.

 

[bazillion]

IMO par is arbitrary. If you're playing against the course, it can make sense but just between us chickens, it's the lowest score at the end of the round that wins, not what "par" is.

OTOH, having a par for a hole lets you talk about birdies, bogeys, and so forth. You can't birdie a hole that doesn't have a par as a standard, even if it is an arbitrary standard set by douchebags who can't tell their rear end from the stick in the hole on #8.

 

[Dave242]

I know plenty of people that would quit playing if they were trying to compare themselves to a gold player.

I think a lot of golfers would quit golf if courses were normally set up like they do for PGA events.

The nice thing about golf is that all they need to do to make the course harder is to not mow the fringes/2nd cut and 3rd cut for a week or two, and place the cups in harder spots and their done. Longer tees can be used too. To make a Gold course in DG is a lot harder (and our budgets are much smaller).

 

[roadtripstuff]

I have only played in a couple local tourneys, but even those use pro par. Also, I have never heard of a tournament that uses course par. This is why I use pro par, I don't know if I ever plan on playing in PDGA tourneys or not, but why would you play and not use the "rules" that are kind of in place.

And isn't this horse beyond dead by now?