ALL Mach baskets should be outlawed in pro tournaments!

[klmdg]

Ein Korb, Ein Kurs, Ein Reich

 

[slowplastic]

I agree I hate Mach 5's, and I usually get 2 chain outs per round on them that I feel like "should" have stuck...but when it comes down to it they weren't dead center. I do think they are some of the more flukey baskets out there. Mach X's are awesome, at least for how I putt. I've had aces chain out of lots of different kinds of baskets...when it comes down to it the disc is going 2-3 times faster than on a putt so it's going to have a good chance of bouncing out. I was shocked the first time but after 5+ chained out aces I barely expect them to stay in anymore when they hit, I don't think this is the best way to evaluate a basket compared to putts.

 

[onemilemore]

Hoo boy. This taek is so hot I need oven mitts.

 

[lyleoross]

Aah, but they are fluky due to the slightly different chain pattern a player is always facing which they cannot discern well enough to adjust or even know how to adjust. That's the failure of radially uniform targets with spaced chains. Move a half degree to the right or left and the pattern presented changes with a slightly different way certain shots at certain angles will miss versus make at a different attack angle. Plus, the disc rim itself isn't always radially uniform in shape or friction level so even the contact point can matter. But it's not something that can possibly controlled by the player.

That still isn't fluky, it just means you've exceeded the physical capacity of the human eye. If we had eagle eyes, we'd be able to see that difference. By your measure, every fairway that has a hard spot where the disc will skip longer and go out is fluky. Every tee pad that isn't perfect is fluky. Every ball golf green by definition is fluky. Can we accept that the world isn't perfect and that isn't fluky, it's reality?

 

[Jay Dub]

This would also be an added expense disc golf tournaments and courses don't need.
I can get most of my putts that hit center to bounce out if I try hard enough, that's not the basket's fault.

 

[Cgkdisc]

That still isn't fluky, it just means you've exceeded the physical capacity of the human eye. If we had eagle eyes, we'd be able to see that difference. By your measure, every fairway that has a hard spot where the disc will skip longer and go out is fluky. Every tee pad that isn't perfect is fluky. Every ball golf green by definition is fluky. Can we accept that the world isn't perfect and that isn't fluky, it's reality?

You're absolutely right. All of those things are fluky/random if player skill level can't adjust to lower the probability for a less desirable result. Not an issue in my book (unless it's MY unfortunate fluke). It's about accepting the level of flukiness/randomness involved versus complaining. Or, instead of complaining you try to do something material to reduce the frequency of unfortunate random results.

 

[lyleoross]

When putts hit dead center, then spit out?

The mechanics of a spit out are interesting. It requires a combination of the right angle and speed. Speed so that the disc hits the center pole, which stops it's forward motion and allows the energy taken up by the chains, on contact with disc, to push the disc back and out of the device. Angle so that the disc goes out and not down. Pretty amazing to think after thirty years players haven't adjusted for those things... I'll bet some have though.

Clearly, different baskets are going to collect more or less energy in their chains, based on configuration.

You only really solve the problem with design and testing.

So, how many spit outs does Ricky have? Not many. He uses a low to high stroke with a nose down entry. How many does Nikko have? Lots. He uses a lower (than Ricky) to higher (than Ricky) stroke with nose down. That said, it seems to me that his spit outs occur when he gets too nose up. When he gets too nose down he hits low. It's almost like Ricky is able to deliver the disc at better angles than Nikko.

Now Ricky had more spit outs than usual at this tournament but most of them seemed to hit left side to me, not off the pole. I could be wrong.

 

[Streets]

DGPT should use the baskets at Earlewood in South Carolina.

 

[eegor]

Spit outs are part of the game. It's the player's skill that gets the disc in the basket. If it gets too easy, the game isn't as fun.

All baskets have a design flaw in some way. Standardizing the basket would raise basket prices by eliminating free market competition.

Since all players are holing out in the same baskets, then it's fair. If they have a spit out, then they made a small error for this basket. That's life.

 

[Consult20]

When putts hit dead center, then spit out?

Yup it's very possible, and I'd be interested in hearing what the pros who played those baskets had to say.

On a side note, my 24 chain practice basket was spitting out pole hits when I first got it. So I tried a tweak that made a huge difference. I measured the OD of the center pole and went online to find pvc with an ID very slightly larger. Home Depot had the perfect solution, gray pvc conduit. I bought a 10' piece, cut it to size, and slid it over the the center pole. The conduit absorbs the hit much better than steel, it was a remarkable difference. I think that single change could help improve even the crappiest baskets with excessive pole bounce outs.

 

[Broken Shoulder]

Every basket has its peculiarities. You learn to play on them accordingly.
Whining about it just makes you a whiner.

It was a LOT more than two shots. Just watch the various Memorial Tournament videos...

Your OP didn't mention putts.
But, my previous post covers that.

 

[SD86]

Yup it's very possible, and I'd be interested in hearing what the pros who played those baskets had to say.

On a side note, my 24 chain practice basket was spitting out pole hits when I first got it. So I tried a tweak that made a huge difference. I measured the OD of the center pole and went online to find pvc with an ID very slightly larger. Home Depot had the perfect solution, gray pvc conduit. I bought a 10' piece, cut it to size, and slid it over the the center pole. The conduit absorbs the hit much better than steel, it was a remarkable difference. I think that single change could help improve even the crappiest baskets with excessive pole bounce outs.

Agreed, I'd like to hear the players' assessments of the baskets at the Memorial.

I like the idea of the pvc or plastic over the center pole; it might help a lot.

And if not standardization of the baskets... how about a standard for what is used for the chains? The Mach chains seem to be thicker and heaver than Discatchers and other brands....

 

[UP Mountain Man]

Twice I've watched a putter high center a Mach X, flip vertical, land on an X link, then roll off of the link onto the ground.

 

[araytx]

I have several comments ...

First, the comment that "spit outs happen" and "they're a part of every tourney, every round" is false. There are clearly those whose style of putting can make proper adjustments given to nearly overcome the randomness of spit-outs. However, if there are 4 or 5 different targets to adjust to in the DGPT alone, plus those in all the other tourneys these guys play, that won't bode well for working in practice on the nuances of each. A basketball player can find a regulation goal to practice his free throws anywhere, and it'll be the same goal as the ones in Madison Square Garden or the Staples Center or wherever.

I think it'll be hard for the PDGA (or whoever the governing body is) to mandate one style/design of basket for the top pro tournaments. The reason -- I believe (rightly or wrongly) that even for the top guys the different designs will favor one style of putting or the other (loft/push putt or spin putt) when it hits chains just ever-so-slightly off the targeted spot. I think that is one of the issues they may never be able to get away from, so discussion and taking one side or the other will be seen as showing a preference to one side or the other (whether spoken or not). I am a push putter, and simply based on what I see from the average casual disc golfer, I believe that on these forums, there are more spin putters who see it from their perspective.

I do, however, agree with Chuck, that given appropriate knowledge and clear lines of sight (not necessarily 'eagle eyes') players of either type can make adjustments. Those who use the hybrid style, for obvious reasons, can make adjustments more easily. I also think Chuck made use in the most recent post of the more appropriate word, "random" is more accurate than "fluky" in terms of what I would term "good putt spit-outs". In an ideal world, the best target would be sure all "good putts", i.e., putts that are accurate in terms of speed, line, energy, and angle, would stay in and all other putts would not. We all should also agree that currently there are also "bad putts" that find a way to stay in on occasion, though probably not as much with these top players.

DGA Mach X, Prodigy Pro, Innova DiscCatcher 28, Dynamic Discs Veteran -- we'll find a contingent that dislikes each one. Just like you'll find a contingent that dislikes the Mach V, the Chainstar, Arroyo Vortex, the Lat64 Pro, etc. For me personally the Mach III seems to give me the most spit-outs, but all of these are approved at the Championship level. I'd like to see some other elements changed to minimize spits without be modified so much that the basket "catches anything close". One idea might be a thinner center pole made of equally strong solid metal with a softer "cushioning" material around it so that the total size is still not wider than the current spec. Whatever happens -- design changes, standardization, etc -- it's gonna seemingly be in the pockets of manufacturers and that doesn't seem positive to me.

I am looking forward with both angst & trepidation AND hope & confidence with the Dynamic Discs Veteran baskets to be used at Brazos East in Waco for the next DGPT, the Waco Charity Open. Both as a player and as a team member I hope that the players experience little, if not any, bad spit-outs. The DGPT players and the viewing audience will get to see and make their own call. I recall when we got to experiment with the prelim design -- almost 18 months prior to the Vet being approved. We had an opportunity to putt on them and make comments for the staff to take back to the DD main office. It was clear that the company was attempting to the best of its ability to find something that would be equally positive for either loft/push putters or spin putters. I believe they've come as close as possible without overdoing it as one prelim design might have been.

In any case, I believe this is a real issue which, if there is a solution (not sure there is), we should try and fix. And yes, it's been the same issue for a few decades so spare me that one. I've never seen a basketball shot go to the bottom of the net and come out, nor have I seen similar with a hockey goal, soccer goal,etc. I don't think there is any other sport that has this issue with their target.

 

[DavidSauls]

Yup it's very possible, and I'd be interested in hearing what the pros who played those baskets had to say.

On a side note, my 24 chain practice basket was spitting out pole hits when I first got it. So I tried a tweak that made a huge difference. I measured the OD of the center pole and went online to find pvc with an ID very slightly larger. Home Depot had the perfect solution, gray pvc conduit. I bought a 10' piece, cut it to size, and slid it over the the center pole. The conduit absorbs the hit much better than steel, it was a remarkable difference. I think that single change could help improve even the crappiest baskets with excessive pole bounce outs.

In the early days of our private course, we borrowed a basket on which someone had done this. I can't attest to the reduced spit-outs---I don't putt accurately enough to blame the baskets---but the muffled chain sound was cool.

 

[runningDoc]

wait I thought putting was too easy? that we were heading towards smaller, bullseye/marksmen baskets?

now we want better catching baskets?

 

[Improbably]

I personally think it's a good thing that baskets spit out "good shots".

If:

Hypothetical basket A has been empirically shown to spit out 10% of good shots.

Hypothetical basket B has been empirically shown to spit out 1% of good shots.

It's in my best interest to play against opponents better than me on the basket with a higher spit out percentage.

Most players need to stop worshipping whiney Pros, and realize these baskets they get butthurt over are benefitting them!

 

[lyleoross]

Interesting enough, in the last JP vid from the final round, Paul comments that the Mach X spits out on the left side. That one got Ricky two or three times last round.

 

[joecoin]

The answer is simple, go back to tone poles.

 

[thechamp]

wait I thought putting was too easy? that we were heading towards smaller, bullseye/marksmen baskets?

now we want better catching baskets?

Maybe we just need to get the "putting is too easy"group to teach the "every shot that hits the chains should stick" group how to putt.